article on common misuses of "win condition"

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Lemonade

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This is something that irks me, basically:

The term "win condition" is used in a misleading manner. Condition implies some set of requirements need to be met before "winning" happens. Usually it isn't used like this.

An example of a misleading use is when people make teams, they say "X Pokemon is my win condition". In reality, how a player wins each game depends on the game itself.

In battles, people say "Pokemon X is my win condition", but this isn't right either. You still have to create the situation where that Pokemon wins, such as weakening its checks. It's more accurate to say "Pokemon X can win the game". This partially shows that the term win condition isn't actually necessary because it doesn't simplify language or anything.

What is accurate is "my win condition(s) are: Lando-T is at 50% or less, and Slowbro is at 30% or less, because then Sweeper X can clean up". This actually describes conditions where one players wins the game.

I think this makes sense, but ofc if anything is unclear please ask questions. :)

edit: I will go more in depth of course
 
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Bummer

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edit: I will go more in depth of course
oh phew you had me worried there for a sec

Anyway, this wouldn't be the first time an article was made based entirely on word meanings, but I'm not confident that this term will have as much material or success as that one. But I WILL admit that win conditions are an important aspect while teambuilding, so if you doubt you could make a full length article based on your above skeleton, then some advice regarding teambuilding with win conditions in mind would be cool too.

also gonna highlight a bunch of players

Sweep CoolStoryBrobat trc Molk Raseri Goddess Briyella Valmanway
 

Goddess Briyella

Banned deucer.
Hi there.

Chiming in to say that "win conditions" actually do have requirements (which are burdens on the player and how they play, not the Pokemon in question), because usually there are important threats that must be removed before one can sweep or otherwise win the game for the player. For instance, Mega Pidgeot is an excellent win condition in RU, but obstacles such as Rhyperior, Tyrantrum, or specially defensive Alomomola must be removed or significantly weakened before it can actually sweep to victory, not to mention possible Choice Scarf-equipped mons with super effective moves.

The same goes for winning with stall; you just have to wear down the thing that gets in the way. Strategies involving Toxic Spikes will need opposing grounded Poison-types removed before they can really set up shop, etc.

I agree with Bummer that some teambuilding advice may be ideal alongside your explanation of this term. Listing examples of high-ranked sweepers from different tiers, paired with teammates which are there specifically to help the sweeper win by removing its common obstacles (Dragmag from BW comes to mind), would be a good way to go here.

Edit: Having win conditions based on just opposing mons being weak enough to KO is not something teambuilding can help with off the bat; that is completely up to how the battle is played, but I'm not sure how resourceful it would be to just inform players that something can sweep if certain things are weakened enough, because that's fairly obvious and the amount of variables is huge. Specific examples that can be pondered as early as the teambuilding stage would be more resourceful to me, but you can also advise that using a damage calculator can help the player determine their limits and "win conditions" while in the heat of the match.
 
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Lemonade

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n Mega Pidgeot is not a win condition, it is a sweeper. Your win condition is when Mega Pidgeot's obstacles are significantly weakened, since under those conditions you can win the game.

Stall's win condition would revert back to the most basic form in Pokemon, which is the when other trainer runs out of Pokemon. You are in a good position when you have TSpikes and the opponent doesn't have a grounded Poison-type, but that does not translate directly to a win (in some cases it might though). If you are sure to win a game in this case, then yes having TSpikes up after grounded Poison-types are removed is a win condition, but note that this is describing a state of the game (the game has met certain conditions / requirements), not certain Pokemon.

In all other contexts of the phrase win condition or victory condition, it is not used in the way Smogon uses it. See sports, chess, etc. An analogy I made elsewhere was with soccer. Victory conditions are when time runs out and you have more goals than your opponent. This is a state of the game; conditions have been met. Messi is not FC Barcelona's win condition.

Also note that win condition does not actually simplify any language, since sweeper basically means the same thing, and it can replace the currently used "win condition" in almost all cases. Win condition is simply an incorrectly coined term that has caught traction.
 
i guess in the literal sense, win conditions are the conditions that need to be present in order to win, but in reality the term is used to mark a strategy/sweeper/idea which users aim to support until that strategy/sweeper/idea wins the game, so even though this article is interesting because it clarifies a definition's literal meaning to those who believe it isn't what is literally stated, the fact is that most users have already adopted this definition for what they believe it to be: that strategy/sweeper/idea. there's no point trying to change what people think the term means.

i mean i guess i'd find this an interesting read myself but i'm not sure you should try to change what people think of a term that's been thrown around for a long time and is generally understood to mean something else.
 

Lemonade

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just as a sidenote "both sides of the spectrum" while this was more a c&c thing it is incorrect (since special and physical isn't a spectrum) and was thrown out

Also I do think it is relevant to try to get people to change their thinking about this phrase for a couple reasons. First, it is the intuitive meaning (ie condition should mean there are a set of requirements that need to be met). Second, which is related to the first, is people coming from outside of Pokemon will have the "correct" usage in mind, even though they might not explicitly be aware of it, and it is good to be consistent.

Couple of slightly possibly related things? In one of pokeaim's recent vids, I expected him to say "win condition (Smogon)" but instead he actually described the actual "win condition (other)" and added a note about being more descriptive, which is what "win condition (other)" forces you to do. When you say the win condition is blah: you actually need to describe what needs to be weakened and by how much rather than just drop a Pokemon's name, and details are always welcome in a discussion.

I also do have a teambuilding context in mind. It's basically a team that was built with making a win condition easier to obtain. Once again with aim, his team was built to make Xerneas's sweep easier by weakening PDon with Shuca Dialga. In reality when you make a team that has a core to help wear down each others' checks, you are making a win condition easier to get to. I can go into more detail and use my own team, but if aim gives me permission I would like to use his since he is well know and that would be good.

Probably rambling at this point so lmk if stuff completely doesn't make sense

edit: tag style cuz gotta get food not trying to be rude or anything: gotta start somewhere, idk actual demographics but i would assume newer players read the smog, contributors have decent influence, something else I forgot?
 
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sandshrewz

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I personally like the idea of this. It explains the original and intended meaning of the phrase that has been loosely used on smogon For years. I thought it'd be an interesting read. Perhaps also have a section explaining how it's used in smogon / pokemon context? This way there wouldn't be confusion. I think there should be enough content with the teambuilding analogy etc but yaa see what others have to say xd
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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Didn't read the posts above me (entirely) so forgive me if I end up restating that which has already been stated, but yeah think I agree that a win condition should be...well, conditional. It's pretty easy to build a UU team and say Crocune is the team's ideal "win condition" but fail to really win with it if the appropriate checks/counters are eliminated, so you can't really call that a "win condition" if it ended up losing, or if the conditions for it to win weren't explicitly met. If your "win condition" was that Crocune's checks are dead and it's healthy enough to set up and sweep the remaining mons, then that's more appropriate.

So yeah, the "win condition" should really be treated more as the actual requirement needed to achieve victory, and should be emphasized more as being a dynamic term since if it comes down to it, it doesn't always have to be your sweeper setting up or a fast Pokemon cleaning; it could simply be that you end up stalling out the remaining few mons until they succumb to status or whatever, which may not have been the outright goal of the team in the first place, but it was another path to victory that was able to be taken.
 
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