AAA Almost Any Ability

I don't really have any interesting thoughts about the state of the meta or anything, I just wanted to show off a set that I've been really enjoying and it helped me break 1500 on the ladder. It is really strong, but not perfect and hopefully not as centralizing as unburden Kommo.

Kommo-o @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Clangorous Soul
- Drain Punch
- Outrage/Poison Jab/Earthquake

It definitely needs team support - I have been using outrage but am considering other options bc basically every fairy walls it and kills it, haze toxapex shuts it down, and its has to get a chance to set up to deal with faster dragons/psychic/flying/taunt. That said, you can come in on something more passive or weak to fighting, hit sub, and start setting up, with multiple opportunities to use clangorous soul between harvest and drain punch recovery. Once you set up once or twice its very hard to counter outside of fairies or pex, and the access to some recovery means even if you get shut down you can try again later.

I normally try to save it towards the end of the match when I've worn down counters, and I pair it with flip turn and volt switch users to give it more opportunities.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
been awhile, AAA...

Genesect Needs to Go.
Its highly flexible in the sets it can run, making it difficult to predict, and each set individually (particularly the physical SF set I outline below) is extremely strong.
As the VR states, it can effectively run tons of sets - BoltBeam No Guard, Scarf or AV Regenerator, Physical Tinted Sheer Force, Special Sheer Force, -Ate Speed, (For some reason Guts is bolded but not Sheer Force?), and more...
With this set diversity, it's extremely hard to predict what to switch in early game, and a mistake can be devestating (you can't even predict physical vs. special moves). For example, you may switch in a physical check just to get zap cannoned.

That said, the main reason I believe Genesect is broken is how strong this set is:
Code:
Genesect @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Blaze Kick
- Gunk Shot
I can't believe this isn't the most common set, as in my (not extensive) experience it's by far the strongest wincon in the meta. It's bulky enough to be able to safely set up a shift gear on almost everything in the meta, and is threatening enough to freely do this against most passive mons. After a single boost, it outspeeds essentially the entire meta, and with its typing it does not lose to any of the meta's priority, making it nearly impossible to revenge kill.

I'm too lazy to go through all the calcs, but here are some important ones off the top of the VR. The takeaway is that it one shots essentially the entire offensive meta, and 2shots almost all of the defensive meta. And for the mons it doesnt guaranteed 2 shot (DS Mew), it can get another shift gear up relatively easily. This is even more threatening due to Rocks being more prevalent with MB ban.
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Harsh Sunshine: 348-411 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Genesect Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zapdos: 391-461 (101.8 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Genesect Gunk Shot vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 455-536 (151.1 - 178%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Genesect Blaze Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 229-270 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 359-422 (85.4 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Tapu Koko: 352-415 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Genesect Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 165-196 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The calcs are really insane. Overaly, I've found this set game breaking and can win almost every game by just doing a little chip damage on the one threat that may be able to take a hit from this, and then clicking shift gear and winning. I think this set is broken enough to be bannable by itself, but in combination with the aforementioned set diversity that makes genesect extremely difficult to predict, it's pretty impossible to stop. I strongly encourage the council to go through more calcs themselves and test this set around. I'd be interested to see what arguments there are against these points, or if council agrees..
 
On the Topic of Genesect:
:xy/genesect:

Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to banning Genesect as well. I believe the issues as Laxpras stated, as Genesect being able to blast through "checks" with sheer strength is not healthy. However, there is another issue about Genesect that I would like to discuss. The amount of sets and moves that it can run can change its "Checks and Counters".

For Example: Something like Heatran is a good counter until Genesect pulls out Sun + SFLO boosted Blaze Kick.

No Guard is an entirely different beast. I'd say its damn near impossible to wall without niche sets, such as Bulletproof Heatran. (Which is quite niche, but helps vs any No Guard mon.) BoltBeam (or in this case, BlizzCannon) coverage has been amazing ever since RBY, but the addition of Leech Life to stave off Life Orb recoil and blast through Special Walls like Blissey pushes Genesect over the edge.

Scarf + Regenerator is another set Genesect can run, taking advantage of the many switches it forces by using its Powerful, Spammable STAB attack, U-turn. Combine this with amazing matchable coverage options in Iron Head, Flamethrower, Gunk Shot, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and many others, you have an unwallable threat that can come in vs teams again and again due to Regenerator.

Hell, even more niche sets can work. For context, I was struggling vs Heatran on ladder, so UT came to help.

UT: wait
I have a funnier set
one second

Shandeur: go on

UT:
Genesect @ Douse Drive
Ability: Primordial Sea
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Mild Nature
- Techno Blast
- Thunder
- Leech Life
- Shift Gear

Shandeur: oml.

Needless to say, Genesect is nearly unwallable, very fast, and can blast through both physical and special walls. For these reasons, I believe Genesect should be banned.
 
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rarre

Sometimes I think maybe its too late
is a Tiering Contributor
Random ladder shitter here to give my half a cent on aaa genesect.



Similar to what Shandeur and Laxpras said above, genesect has a lot of different sets, each with different counters. SFLO, No guard, tinted lens, scarf regen, and the other 22 sets that it has. It also has an excellent 120 attack and special attack stat along with its great coverage and limitless viable abilities, making it impossible to safely check. Heatran might be a decent switch into regenscarf, but it gets blasted by a +1 sflo blaze kick. Mandibuzz might be able to take on tinted lens shift gear (or at least make it explode), but hates switching into a no guard set. Regenvest swampert and jirachi might be able to take on special sets, but can be overwhelmed by tinted lens shift gear and sflo shift gear respectively.

That’s all I really have to say about genesect’s potential brokenness in aaa, sorry if this seemed a bit repetitive.

btw you should use tinted lens genesect removing resistances is nice when the one of the more common method of dealing with gene is to resist its attacks

Shandeur you can now post again
 
Now that I can post again...here's a team that I've been using a lot and that I wanted to share (Possible sample?)

Zarude + SFLO Lele Bulky Offense

:ss/zarude: :ss/tapu-lele: :ss/corviknight: :ss/heatran: :ss/zapdos: :ss/palossand:

It's a bulky offense/balance team that focuses on forcing a lot of chip damage for my offensive mons to put in work. Each mon here fills a purpose, and it felt satisfying to use the team when testing.

:zarude: This thing is a monster. Banded Grassy Glide OHKOs Tapu Koko after rocks, and is a great revenge killer. U-turn (Monke Flip) Darkest Lariat and Close Combat provide great coverage too. Jolly is preferred here so I outspeed and 2HKO Zapdos with Darkest Lariat.

:tapu-lele: SFLO Lele is something straight out of my nightmares, and I love it. It can 2HKO Blissey with Focus Blast for christ's sake, and if that's possible, anything is. Psyshock is an alternative for Blissey, and is a good secondary stab. Moonblast blows frailer neutral targets away, while Focus Blast packs steels and Thunderbolt packs things like non-Volt Absorb Corviknight.

:corviknight: Amazing physical pivot. Defog helps with longevity for the team, and being a defensive Pokemon with U-turn is amazing. Nothing else to be said here.

:heatran: I wrote the first draft for the regenerator analysis for this recently. Chople Berry + Heavy Slam lures Lele, and less notably Alakazam, so that's cool.

:zapdos: Amazing special breaker. Hurricane + Thunder are great for their high BP + hax chance. U-turn helps with pivoting and roost provides self-healing.

:palossand: It walls standard barraskewda lmfao

Thanks for reading! Hope this gets added to samples.
 
I reached #1 yesterday running a very taunt heavy team.
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I've changed the team since then, after 2 days spamming it on ladder the number of Pex and Unaware Mandi spiked, making my Kommo-o useless. Here's the team as it was when I reached #1: AAA Pest (pokepast.es)

The concept is just to set up hazards and never let them defog. Once their Kommo-o check is poisoned Kommo-o can beat it very easily 1v1 by just spamming sub. I've since replaced Kommo-o with Zarude, because I wanted something that broke bulky waters and outsped Zapdos, which is a major nuisance for the team (Volt Switch Zapdos, which I think is the better set, is very manageable. Thunder Zapdos, which ladder prefers, is a pain in the butt).
 
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Hello to all. I recently decided, encouraged by the victory of my compatriots in WCOP, to join the WCOOM in order not to miss this event which is always rich in all respects. So I had to get back into AAA: I read the discussions around the metagame, I tried to build some teams, I played on the ladder (resulting in a degradation of my mental health, which is not always a bad thing in AAA, and which may explain this post). It's pretty clear to most players that the state of the meta is not satisfactory, and I agree. It is also clear that no solution proposed so far satisfies everyone. In this post, I propose a new and exciting solution: unban Neutralizing Gas (and implement SAC). Please keep reading. I will give a quick summary of the metagame's problems, then summarize the solutions so far proposed and explain quickly why they are only partially satisfactory (those two parts you can skip if you're up to date with the discussions), and finally I will defend my position.

The Problems

One just has to try and build a good team to realize that it is very difficult to afford counterplay against all the threats in the tier. There are simply too many of them and they are diverse, which makes it necessary to make choices, for example (as The Number Man said in his excellent post) between breakers that are useful defensively but easy to counter and breakers that are useless defensively but difficult to counter. A very significant proof of this is that for every non-HO sample team, though very solid and built by a competent player, I can find a relatively common breaker against which it has very little to no counterplay at all - not even speaking about more niche breakers that they may lose to (stuff like specs Primsea Volcanion, Tinted Mienshao, etc.). I don't think that anyone in their right mind, considering this fact, can believe that doing nothing is the right solution (Osake :messi:).
Koko + Moltres Balance by beauts + The Number Man :genesect: :garchomp: :tapu Koko: :toxapex: :moltres: :mew: TC Zarude

Koko + Gapdos Offense
by xavgb :tapu koko: :blissey: :zapdos-galar: :excadrill: :golisopod: :mew: DLand Cinderace

RegenScarf Latias Balance
by astralydia :zapdos: :zarude: :latias: :landorus-therian: :heatran: :corviknight: Barraskewda

Double Band Bulky Offense
by UT :zarude: :terrakion: :corviknight: :chansey: :swampert: :azelf: Taunt Heatran

Inteleon + Chandelure Balance
by The Number Man :inteleon: :chandelure: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :blissey: :skarmory: TC Zarude

Suicune + BIG ZYG Fat
by beauts + The Number Man :heatran: :zygarde-10%: :tapu koko: :ferrothorn: :suicune: :mandibuzz: Terrakion

Doublade + Bounce Koko Fat
by beauts :doublade: :garchomp: :tapu koko: :chansey: :slowbro: :mandibuzz: TC Zarude

Talonflame + Lele Balance
by xavgb :nidoqueen: :skarmory: :blissey: :talonflame: :rotom-wash: :tapu lele: MG Zapdos-G

Koko + Zarude Bulky Offense
by UT :corviknight: :heatran: :tapu fini: :zarude: :tapu koko: :blissey: Cinderace
This leads to the second problem, which is intertwined with the previous one (they are not two separate problems), which is the excessive importance of the matchup in the outcome of games. This factor is not only implied by what I said in the previous paragraph, but it is accentuated by several other parameters. 1) The lack of fast threats makes HO too attractive, and it is the archetype most subject to matchup variance. 2) The presence of polarized breakers, which require to choose among a restricted panel of counters, like SFLO Lele or Pixilate Koko. 3) The Regen cores, whose matchup in a game between two BOs is an extremely impactful parameter for the outcome of the game, and which forbid defensive pokémons to make progress, which makes it more difficult to outplay difficult matchups.


Short critical review of proposed solutions

The problems raised cannot be solved by a small change, like banning Genesect or Tapu Koko, or even Magic Guard. The situation requires a greater change: this is addressed, with all due respect, to the council. The Magic Bounce and Unburden ban was modest in that its impact on the meta (though positive in my opinion) was small. It is not desirable for the meta to remain this way during WCOOM.

Don't feel obliged to read everything, you won't find anything new here.

Pros: Building is restricted by breakers? Some breakers rely too much on guessing games? The easiest solution is to ban them. Genesect, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Magic Guard have been mentioned by several players whose value is unquestionable. Sheer Force, Psychic Surge, Tinted Lens, Primal Weathers are mentioned by some. All of these are restrictive in their own way, some more than others.

Cons: We don't want to stray too far from our "base", which is still OU. Also, we are afraid that if we banish these threats, others will come that are just as problematic or polarizing. We are afraid that it is in the nature of AAA to have breakers like this. I include myself in that "we". This may be the most logical solution, but it is also the most engaging, and the least predictable in its consequences.
Pros: We lack defensive solutions and versatile breakers? It is natural to look for them in the banlist. Poison Heal is sometimes mentioned (always in conjunction with SAC), as well as Blacephalon and Weavile.

Cons: The easy answer is to say that we banned these items for a reason. This is not without truth, but the metagame has changed since then, and it could be argued that their impact will not be the same. On Blacephalon and Weavile, I think that the impact of an unban would be insufficient to solve our problems, not to mention that it is dangerous, especially for Weavile. On PH + SAC, see the next paragraph.
Pros: By far the element of the metagame most affected by a potential SAC is Regen. As I said earlier, Regen cores increase the weight of the matchup, and do not seem to be a healthy element for the meta. I had produced a detailed argument in French for SAC, or even ban Regen (I'll translate it if anyone asks, but I'm lazy at the moment). To counterbalance the hit that defensive cores would take in passing, many have suggested unbanning PH at the same time, which seems reasonable, though it's understandable that some are afraid of PH Snorlax and Fini's return.

Cons: The reasons against this measure seem to me to be more technical than meta-related. Still, it should be pointed out that this is definitely not the right time to strike a blow to the flexibility of defensive cores; and one can understand the reluctance of some to unban Pheal.


My The Solution : unban Neutralizing Gas (and implement SAC)

Why NGas solves our problems


Neutralizing Gas is an ability for both defensive and offensive use. Defensively, it offers the possibility to cancel out opposing breakers abilities to better manage them. For example, NGas Corv is a good check to all Zarudes combined, or NGas Lando-T handles Pixilate Tapu Koko and Primsea Zapdos - there are many options. Offensively NGas Heatran obviously comes to mind, denying all immunity to Magma Storm and Toxic (note that Regen Pert/Chomp are still counters); but also for example NGas Terrakion, which denies Intimidate and Dshield, etc. It seems to me that the defensive use of NGas is more significant than its offensive use, although both are true.

- In this way, NGas helps to solve the problem of restricted defensive cores, since it is not a niche tool, but is always useful - it avoids situations where the wall is useless (as is sometimes the case when you use FF Corv against a team without fire attacks, and in the many examples of this kind). It is easy to insert into a team. Furthermore, if you look at the elements of the metagame that are considered problematic, they are often not totally obliterated by NGas, but rather diminished. The most obvious example is Magic Guard, against which NGas offers reasonable counterplay. Koko and Zarude also come to mind. Genesect is probably still broken lol.
- By its offensive use, which some might consider to negate the ability's interest for the flexibility of defensive cores, the ability actually helps solve the problem of breaker polarization. For example, NGas Cinderace is much less afraid of facing a counter than Dland Cinderace, since it can click Pyro Ball and maintain momentum (similar, in fact, to how breakers work in OU). You just have better Mold Breaker (since you also deny weathers and terrains), and I assume most people find that ability to be fine (and quite cool) offensively. Heatran obviously becomes very strong, but it really just reverts to its situation in OU, where you have to deal with it without Flash Fire or Primsea.
- Is it necessary to argue for the usefulness of NGas against Magic Guard and Regen cores?

Why NGas isn't broken

So far you probably agree, but you're probably wondering if NGas is not totally unhealthy for the meta, or even broken. This leads us to ask: why, and under what circumstances, was NGas banned? And the answer is: in a chaotic and underdeveloped meta, at a time when it wasn't working properly on PS! (and obviously without SAC). You can find here the reasoning of the council members at the time for their choice, and here the ban announcement in this thread. On the broken character of NGas (this is not the main argument against it), I frankly find it hard to see. I can't think of a breaker with that ability that would be broken. Maybe Heatran, but then again Regen grounds are still counters, so we arguably have more tools against it than they do in OU. Giving up something like Intimidate or an immunity ability for it isn't the easiest of choices. Same offensively.

Now, on the idea that NGas destroys the "soul of the tier", or the idea that it is too centralizing, or that it offers too many possibilities, this is certainly the case without SAC. Without SAC, it is pretty clear that two NGas users per team would be problematic - I don't think I need to elaborate. With SAC, a choice is forced between defensive or offensive use of the ability, on a single user. I don't think this is enough to totally warp the meta like a black hole. It's a strong ability, and I don't pretend that the change I'm proposing is a small change - I'm even glad it's a drastic change - drastic enough to reshape the meta, but not to completely overthrow it. I think the VR would look aproximately the same - at least nothing will disappear and nothing should rise out of nowhere.


In conclusion, and to summarize, the meta has problems that keep some valuable players away from AAA. Several solutions have been proposed previously, but none of them seems to be unanimous, far from it. I propose a new solution: unban Neutralizing Gas. This involves implementing SAC, which is a fairly natural change, since the two major reasons against SAC are canceled by NGas (the last reason against it being, it seems, a technical one, which I hope isn't insurmountable). Obviously, unbanning PH immediately comes to mind, and it's probably a good idea to do it in the process - given that the ability is severely restricted by NGas anyway, but it offers some nice defensive options, balancing somewhat the loss of a second Regen slot. I hope this idea makes some people as enthusiastic as it does for me. I would be happy to hear some opinions. I hope you won't resign yourself to not make any changes just because gen9 is near - but I know that could not be your intention.
 

Glitchwood High

formerly Err0r Mobutt
So the Genesect Suspect is live and running. A lot of good takes have already been posted, and I've already made my take on things so no sense in a giant repost. But I just want to layout something here that's important:

you're never supposed to be able to handle everything at once
It seems like a fairly simple concept but I do think genesect discourse is approaching "it's broken because you can't check it with one mon!!" levels of discourse, which is...bad? Maybe it's because I've been playing Pokemon a few years too long, but the concept of a mon with:
  • shaky checks and zero counters​
  • lots of different sets​
Isn't exactly mind-blowing to me? This isn't to say that Genesect is fine because "haha skill issue" but the idea that a Pokemon is broken simply because it can alternate through it's checks and counters is pretty silly--like no shit, I think the majority of good offensive mons can all do that to some extent, and some can do it pretty well. There are very few Pokemon that have hard counters, so Genesect possessing none is a non-factor.

I also think the basic concept of "setup gene has different counters from non-setup gene" is another 'no shit' position. Even in this very tier, there's mons that do the exact same thing; there's a big difference between predicting choice-specs Alakazam and trying to stop it from setting up nasty plot. Mew clicking Cosmic Power is a bit different from Mew clicking Teleport. Guessing between Band Terrakion and Swords Dance Terrakion is, and will always be, a rather nasty process. You get the idea.

You could argue that "well those mons are different because they have more blanket checks" but, as it happens, Genesect has a few blanket checks of it's own! Heatran and Corviknight have been laughing at the majority of it's sets for a while now, but the mon in-general needs very specific coverage to beat lots of common defensive Pokemon, and it can never fit them all. This is something I think is often overlooked-while Genesect does have the ability to adapt to everything, it cannot do this without losing to a lot of things as well. That Genesect that ran blaze kick to beat corv is getting it's ass beat by prankster toxapex. All the non-scarf, non-shiftgear sets are getting outspeed and ko'd by half of the tier. All the special sets cry at the sight of a pink blob, and so on and so forth. No set is even close to being too difficult to handle...

...which is proven by the fact that Genesect has never managed to prove itself in AAA's competitive scene across the entire generation. It's quite difficult to argue that a Pokemon is broken when, at a high level, it's rarely ever been used to success. This simply proves what I said before: genesect is a very hit-or-miss, matchup-fishy Pokemon that's pretty much dependent on luck to run away with games.

Your team won't beat all Genesect sets, but it's beating most of them, and they're only running one
With this all being said, is Genesect still healthy for the tier? Because while there's a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that it's not overpowered, a mon need not be strictly overpowered to be banned. Being such a matchup-fishy Pokemon in the first place could be interpreted as being problematic, because depending on just how extreme those matchups are, you could argue it turns the meta into a coinflip. Alternatively, you could argue the metagame centralizes around the bug too much (even if tournaments say otherwise). Genesect is a pretty strong mon no matter how you slice it, and it's definitely deserving of a suspect.

to make a long story short I don't think Genesect is OP but it is kind of problematic from some POVs. Even then, I just hope the pro-ban side considers my stupid post a tiny bit

EDIT: Forgot to mention but also while Genesect is pretty hard to predict, you can still guess a decent amount based off it's team composition (because H.O. isn't running scarfregen Genesect lol). As someone that's laddered against H.O. a shitton, generally not the hardest guess. Genesect has a lot of potential moves but it cannot just mix and match them willy-nilly, and it will still lose to a shitton of stuff.

also the Laxpras Genesect set is a good example of what I'm talking about. That stuff loses to any Flash Fire Steel, Haze Tox, Dauntless Shield Hippo, Unaware Mew, Unaware Mandi and many more mons that I didn't even mention. It's not even close to being 'the best wincon in the tier' because all the Pokemon I mentioned are quite viable and most of them are very common; I didn't even dip into the weirder stuff. Genesect having the bulk to 'setup on almost anything' is also a ridiculous claim given it's whopping 71/95/95 defenses (at best slightly below average for setup sweepers). It's not a bad set but that is definitely overhyped
 
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Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
So the Genesect Suspect is live and running. A lot of good takes have already been posted, and I've already made my take on things so no sense in a giant repost. But I just want to layout something here that's important:

you're never supposed to be able to handle everything at once
It seems like a fairly simple concept but I do think genesect discourse is approaching "it's broken because you can't check it with one mon!!" levels of discourse, which is...bad? Maybe it's because I've been playing Pokemon a few years too long, but the concept of a mon with:
  • shaky checks and zero counters​
  • lots of different sets​
Isn't exactly mind-blowing to me? This isn't to say that Genesect is fine because "haha skill issue" but the idea that a Pokemon is broken simply because it can alternate through it's checks and counters is pretty silly--like no shit, I think the majority of good offensive mons can all do that to some extent, and some can do it pretty well. There are very few Pokemon that have hard counters, so Genesect possessing none is a non-factor.

I also think the basic concept of "setup gene has different counters from non-setup gene" is another 'no shit' position. Even in this very tier, there's mons that do the exact same thing; there's a big difference between predicting choice-specs Alakazam and trying to stop it from setting up nasty plot. Mew clicking Cosmic Power is a bit different from Mew clicking Teleport. Guessing between Band Terrakion and Swords Dance Terrakion is, and will always be, a rather nasty process. You get the idea.

You could argue that "well those mons are different because they have more blanket checks" but, as it happens, Genesect has a few blanket checks of it's own! Heatran and Corviknight have been laughing at the majority of it's sets for a while now, but the mon in-general needs very specific coverage to beat lots of common defensive Pokemon, and it can never fit them all. This is something I think is often overlooked-while Genesect does have the ability to adapt to everything, it cannot do this without losing to a lot of things as well. That Genesect that ran blaze kick to beat corv is getting it's ass beat by prankster toxapex. All the non-scarf, non-shiftgear sets are getting outspeed and ko'd by half of the tier. All the special sets cry at the sight of a pink blob, and so on and so forth. No set is even close to being too difficult to handle...

...which is proven by the fact that Genesect has never managed to prove itself in AAA's competitive scene across the entire generation. It's quite difficult to argue that a Pokemon is broken when, at a high level, it's rarely ever been used to success. This simply proves what I said before: genesect is a very hit-or-miss, matchup-fishy Pokemon that's pretty much dependent on luck to run away with games.

Your team won't beat all Genesect sets, but it's beating most of them, and they're only running one
With this all being said, is Genesect still healthy for the tier? Because while there's a lot of empirical evidence to suggest that it's not overpowered, a mon need not be strictly overpowered to be banned. Being such a matchup-fishy Pokemon in the first place could be interpreted as being problematic, because depending on just how extreme those matchups are, you could argue it turns the meta into a coinflip. Alternatively, you could argue the metagame centralizes around the bug too much (even if tournaments say otherwise). Genesect is a pretty strong mon no matter how you slice it, and it's definitely deserving of a suspect.

to make a long story short I don't think Genesect is OP but it is kind of problematic from some POVs. Even then, I just hope the pro-ban side considers my stupid post a tiny bit

EDIT: Forgot to mention but also while Genesect is pretty hard to predict, you can still guess a decent amount based off it's team composition (because H.O. isn't running scarfregen Genesect lol). As someone that's laddered against H.O. a shitton, generally not the hardest guess. Genesect has a lot of potential moves but it cannot just mix and match them willy-nilly, and it will still lose to a shitton of stuff.

also the Laxpras Genesect set is a good example of what I'm talking about. That stuff loses to any Flash Fire Steel, Haze Tox, Dauntless Shield Hippo, Unaware Mew, Unaware Mandi and many more mons that I didn't even mention. It's not even close to being 'the best wincon in the tier' because all the Pokemon I mentioned are quite viable and most of them are very common; I didn't even dip into the weirder stuff. Genesect having the bulk to 'setup on almost anything' is also a ridiculous claim given it's whopping 71/95/95 defenses (at best slightly below average for setup sweepers). It's not a bad set but that is definitely overhyped
There are fair points here, but issues with a couple things:
  • Mostly, I'm just tired of the "lol flash fire steels, idiot" responses. First, I'd argue FF steels are just niche and relatively bad at this point in the meta, particularly due to Victini being gone. If you really want to dedicate a FF mon just so you can check Heatran and a blaze kick Genesect, at the cost of being able to check the other strong threats in the meta, be my guest.... Second, with Gene typing, it's actually able to continue setting up and hitting things like Corv and Ferro pretty hard with Iron Head, and isn't threatened by much since they're so passive/resisted.
  • Yes Pex & Pert counter it. Things like Mew and Mandi will also check at full HP. I never claimed it is uncheckable. But the checks are typically highly passive, limit teambuilding, and yes, may not be the instant switch in due to the threat of Gene being a different set
    • (You correctly pointed out that being set diverse isn't sufficient for banning in itself. You also seemed to hint at recognizing there are more problems with Gene..)
  • SG Gene pretty much solos offense teams
  • Not sure what the bulk point was? 71/95/95 Steel typing is decent bulk that, yes, allow it to set up on the majority of the meta
 
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There are fair points here, but issues with a couple things:
  • Mostly, I'm just tired of the "lol flash fire steels, idiot" responses. First, I'd argue FF steels are just niche and relatively bad at this point in the meta, particularly due to Victini being gone. If you really want to dedicate a FF mon just so you can check Heatran and a blaze kick Genesect, at the cost of being able to check the other strong threats in the meta, be my guest.... Second, with Gene typing, it's actually able to continue setting up and hitting things like Corv and Ferro pretty hard with Iron Head, and isn't threatened by much since they're so passive/resisted.
  • Yes Pex & Pert counter it. Things like Mew and Mandi will also check at full HP. I never claimed it is uncheckable. But the checks are typically highly passive, limit teambuilding, and yes, may not be the instant switch in due to the threat of Gene being a different set
    • (You correctly pointed out that being set diverse isn't sufficient for banning in itself. You also seemed to hint at recognizing there are more problems with Gene..)
  • SG Gene pretty much solos offense teams
  • Not sure what the bulk point was? 71/95/95 Steel typing is decent bulk that, yes, allow it to set up on the majority of the meta
heatran is a massive problem for stall, for this reason I run flash fire ferrothorn and prim sea corvik to deal with basically all heatran variants, part of the reason I believe stall is so good in this tier is because you can use actually viable mons to check heatran, or wall it completely instead of natural cure altaria in ou

heatran has been the wallbreaker with the least amount of defensive counterplay for how many years now

also I want to puff up my chest and talk about umbreon, probably the best unaware mon in the meta now, I don't think it's relatively close, it fills the niche extremely well, walls pretty much every sweeper in the tier whether physical or special, even genesect lacking life orb with low offense evs, kommo o's drain punches etc, I think it's just a better mandibuzz, not weak to rocks and can run leftovers

unaware is all about bst, and umbreon has possibly the best defenses and general utility for an unaware mon in the tier, based on the sheer amount of setup mons walled, chansey gets beat by stored power, knock off, and a decent amount of physical sweepers, mandibuzz gets beat by lack of bulk, electric and ice weakness, general weakness to status and stealth rocks, and inability to run leftovers

umbreon.gif


Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Foul Play

also being a dark type umbreon walls stored power sweepers, polteagiest, mew, you name it

I think people who use mandibuzz as their unaware wall are trying to make it do too much, you want it to hazard control, and be unaware and not run leftovers to mitigate status, etc on and on, some teams might need it but I think it's too much, you'll probably get knocked off if you're trying to hazard control, or statused, now your unaware mon is switching into a rocks weakness

umbreon puts the opposing sweeper at a huge disadvantage, either they boost up their attack now to defeat whatever is infront of it, or they attack now hoping for a crit and eschewing setup, if they setup a sd then foul play will 1hko it, if they don't then they're walled by corviknight, rune, or whatever I have infront of it
 
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runerigus, dare I say the best hazard setter in the tier

runerigus.gif


Runerigus @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic Spikes
- Night Shade
- Earthquake

runerigus always had a great movepool, interesting typing, good bulk and resistances to difficult to check mons, yet, has no good recovery

I have used rest runerigus in ou, yes it walled dracozolts, yes it was niche, was it worth it, maybe, maybe it wasn't, only god can judge me

however in aaa runerigus is probably the hardest hazard setter to deal with, everything on the opposing team is getting burnt or tspiked, corviknight wants to come in and defog tspikes, getting burnt and worn down, also corviknight can't do anything back, also, without pressure corviknight can't keep hazards down, toxapex wants to come in and absorb tspikes, it's eating night shades, earthquakes or willowisps, again crippling it, toxapex without regen can't play the stall game anymore, the opponent will need to heal bell, and with decent play should run out long before your onslaught of tspikes and willowisps are done with

with spikes and stealth rocks support, which is very powerful in this tier, and in combination with runerigas's incredible ability to spread status your opponent will struggle to switch into moves like night shade repeatedly, even regen cores are dismantled

great against all playstyles, the best hazard setter in aaa, and the movepool is so deep that you can change it to fit your team, maybe you want taunt, maybe you want rocks, etc
 

UT

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nathanlikeschicken asked for heat AAA sets in their latest video on AAA, so I want to oblige! These are some unusual pairings of mons and abilities that have at least some merit mostly, and can hopefully flex the creativity that is present in AAA! I also need a break from talking about Genesect
:ss/kommo-o:
Kommo-o @ Life Orb
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Boomburst
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

You know those annoying Toxapex, Corviknight, and Tapu Fini that wall Kommo-o? Just yeet them with Galvanize Boomburst!

:ss/landorus-therian:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Galvanize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance

But that's not our only wacky Galvanize set! Want to get Rocks up and keep them up? Bring in Lando, set up Stealth Rock as they bring in Corviknight, Mandibuzz, or Tapu Fini to Defog, and boom! No more Defogger.

:ss/salamence:
Salamence @ Flame Orb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Facade
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

It's Mega Salamence (actually slightly stronger!) but with worse defenses and takes burn damage every turn.

:ss/raikou:
Raikou @ Magnet
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rising Voltage
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Calm Mind

Raikou has a really nice Speed tier, pivoting, setup, and can annoy most Ground-types with Scald.

:ss/grimmsnarl:
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Triage
EVs: 92 Atk / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Mild Nature
- Draining Kiss
- Dark Pulse
- Drain Punch
- Nasty Plot

It is a Triage mon that doesn't auto-lose to Psychic Surge or Blissey!

:ss/corviknight:
Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Wandering Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog

I know, I know, how can a Corviknight be funny? By stealing Regenerator! Instead of recovering 1/3rd of their health, they lose 1/6th from the Helmet!

:ss/heliolisk:
Heliolisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electrify
- Hyper Voice
- Charge Beam
- Substitute

Electrify + Lightning Rod is dumb and I hate it but I couldn't convince council to ban it.

:ss/porygon-z:
Porygon-Z @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Tri Attack
- Ice Beam
- Pain Split

I don't even know what the hell this is, ask Isaiah.

:ss/darmanitan-galar:
Darmanitan-Galar @ Salac Berry
Ability: Zen Mode
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Fire Punch / Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Substitute

"Wait, isn't that just a normal Darm-G?" Yes, yes it is, but it's legal in an "OU" level metagame.

:ss/landorus-therian:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 88 Def / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
- Substitute

"The opposing Swampert used Flip Turn! It's in big trouble now!"

:ss/venusaur:
Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 168 HP / 24 Def / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Synthesis
- Weather Ball
- Sludge Bomb

Funny DLand Growth mon one.

:ss/zarude:
Zarude @ Life Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Solar Blade
- Darkest Lariat
- Growth
- Synthesis

Funny DLand Growth mon two.

:ss/glastrier:
Glastrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Doesn't care about Trick, status, or hazards, and can set up to a million.

:ss/tornadus-therian:
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- Nasty Plot

It's broken if you're lucky, otherwise...yeah. No Guard is available for cowards, but much weaker.

:ss/chandelure:
Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Energy Ball
- Fire Blast
- Trick

Merciless Hex is really funny if you get Toxic Spikes down or something.

:ss/vaporeon:
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald

Or pair it with Corrosion Vaporeon to troll Corviknight and friends.

:ss/terrakion:
Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
- Laser Focus

You know how Intimidate and Dauntless Shield normally check Terrakion? Not anymore!
Got anymore dumb fun sets? Share them as well! This is far from an exhaustive list!
 
posting some funny sets? WITHOUT me?

:ss/entei:
dog 2 (Entei) @ Leftovers
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
- Substitute

Fire and Flames (Entei) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Double-Edge
- Sacred Fire
- Substitute

there are two choices in life: pixilate or desolate land. you can either click the sacred fire button or click the double edge button. oh yeah btw sub entei lowkey broken but lets not get into that

:ss/excadrill:
Excadrill @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 124 HP / 176 Def / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

ever wanted a koko counter but it can actually do something outside of countering koko? introducing excadrill. slot in spin over rocks if you need hazard control, otherwise just click buttons and watch koko drop

:ss/inteleon:
Inteleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Weather Ball
- U-turn

AP5Fanboy will you play aaa if i say this is broken on ladder? well it is, if your opponent doesnt have ferro it might as well be ggs(as long as you can handle getting revenged by koko)

:ss/dracozolt:
Dracozolt @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 212 Atk / 44 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Earthquake
spammed the hell out of dracozolt on eterrain alongside xurki, its really really good unless your opponent brings av lando in which case its gg from preview
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
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oh boi we're posting weird sets? I wanna do it!

:ss/volcarona:
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Bug Buzz

This set burns physical attackers before they can hit you, or sets up on special attackers allowing you to take less than they might have expected. The EVs live Barraskewda Liquidation allowing you to burn it and get tf out of there. You might be tempted to run Reflect over Will-o-Wisp, but then you'll realize that Volcarona only gets Light Screen and not Reflect for some stupid reason. In a nutshell, this set abuses peoples expectations about what Volcarona runs, but should never be your go-to set. It was inspired by a Bellossom set of all things I ran on a randpoke team that was more successful than it had any right to be.

:ss/talonflame:
Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost

Commonly thought of as the worst possible Pokemon and the worst designed one to boot, is it possible Talonflame has a niche in this metagame? ...Nah it's ugly.
 

AnimaticLunatic

I COULD BE BANNED!
The set I find most team suficating is his no guard mixed life orb attacker. The only constant checks I found Volt absort Corviknight (fine check to all variants of tapu koko and non weather ball zapdos (forget about choice specks)) volt absorb toxapex (only other thing it checks is tapu koko), unaware chansey and regenerator rotom-H (really now) . Sure, it mostly fits only on hyper offense teamse and on some bulky offense but checking it is pain otherwise.

Without that sett it would be more manageable. With it, even heatren cries in its wake-
 
The set I find most team suficating is his no guard mixed life orb attacker. The only constant checks I found Volt absort Corviknight (fine check to all variants of tapu koko and non weather ball zapdos (forget about choice specks)) volt absorb toxapex (only other thing it checks is tapu koko), unaware chansey and regenerator rotom-H (really now) . Sure, it mostly fits only on hyper offense teamse and on some bulky offense but checking it is pain otherwise.

Without that sett it would be more manageable. With it, even heatren cries in its wake-
volt absorb heatran as well, walls pretty much all the electric spam teams, I guess some people use rotom w but very few,
 
wanted to post some mini analyses for teams i've built recently so uhhhhhhh

:tapu-lele::excadrill::entei::mew::corviknight::chansey:
why is that the nickname theme

lele was originally grimmsnarl before i got some help from mobutt. i built this literally today so it obviously hasnt been tested but entei lele exca has some cool potential, and ground corv blob is always a good defensive core. if you ever want to use it, play aggressively with entei's subs. getting a free sub on the barra switch can be gamechanging. exca should always click rocks first if it gets a free turn, no exceptions. aside from that just play it however feels right

:raikou::entei::zarude::mew::landorus-therian::corviknight:
two dogs

entei kills everything that isnt an ff corv/chomp, raikou kills everything that isnt a chomp/va corv. oh yeah btw corv walls chomp so easily. if you run into zygod it might as well be ggs but hey, you got two dogs now. again, be aggressive with entei subs and try to click the sacred fire/rising voltage button. zarude power whip is like the one answer thiis team has to zygod so if you lose your zarude good luck

:entei::zapdos::talonflame::ferrothorn::mew::corviknight:
i forgot to give this one a name lmao

in case you cant tell, i really like entei. this was the team that started that trend. firespam is great until you run into ff corv, but its ok because you got zap. ds mew for blanket physical check, spdef regen ferro for blanket special check, zappy got some hp, etc etc. rocks mew is pretty cringe but if you can get rocks and a spike up entei is so hard for the defoggers to handle(unless they run fini but genuinely who the fuck runs fini in september 2022)
 
i've been getting into playing this OM again, so i wanted to add to the weird sets being posted a few days ago


Latias (F) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock/Stored Power/Psychic
- Roost
- Calm Mind
- Psycho Shift

i came up with this set when i wanted to see if there was a mon who could copy one of sigilyph's most unique sets in standard (magic guard with cosmic power, flame orb, psycho shift, and stored power) in this meta. psycho shift has surprisingly awful distribution, so i had to go with calm mind over cosmic power (only other mon with cosmic power + psycho shift was xatu lol). i ended up arriving on this set, which i think is pretty cool but could be optimized a bit. it can be bulky and annoying in the midgame by spreading burns and healing, and if/when there's no dark type to stop it, it can try and sweep.

the attack can vary, i think psyshock is best but the other 2 listed have their perks. i gave the set enough speed to outspeed every relevant dark type in the meta (mainly zarude), so that if one comes in it can get burned before trying to attack. i played a couple of games with this set the last time i was into this OM (sadly lost the team it was on) and it was a lot of fun but super gimmicky lol
 

Isaiah

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UM/OM Leader
Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Knock Off

Does anyone remember when this + Scarf Dragapult was the truth 2 years ago? Basically same idea as Tinted Tapu Lele except you get to singlehandedly remove the assault vest from Jirachi to try and 2HKO it with Moonblast later. Otherwise, it's good on teams where you can manufacture ways to pivot it in.

Oh yeah, I built a team with it: https://pokepast.es/c064a88fb43cfe95. It has a 100% winrate vs everything it doesn't lose to.
 

UT

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The bug has been squashed...


Genesect is banned from AAA!
Thanks again to everyone who got reqs and voted in a truly massive suspect test! We will update sample teams and the VR post-World Cup, but please feel free to start giving us sample teams, VR noms, or general post-Genesect metagame thoughts!

Rip in peace The Flagship I am crying rn
 

Isaiah

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UM/OM Leader
It's not a regen scarf Genesect (I think this is better than gene anyway), but...

:SS/Mew:
Mew @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 Spe
Bold / Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Ice Beam / Triple Axel / Gunk Shot / Flamethrower
- Volt Switch / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
- Teleport / Will-O-Wisp / Flip Turn / U-turn / Thunder Wave

Choice Scarf Regen Mew is already a set that exists, but because I put this mon on probably 4 out of every 5 teams I build, I figured I'd make a post about it. Even without dauntless shield, Mew's overall bulk is pretty incredible, and it plays the role of "dancing around threats until I can figure out how to win with my guys" extremely well, because a lot of strong attackers (CB Terrakion, PsySurge Azelf, Garchomp, Zapdos (both G and K) are not quite able to OHKO and/or get abused by regen pivot scouting. Additionally, Mew's utility just makes it generally incredible at complicating matchups enough for you to come out on top: Trick threatens all the bulky mons (and also means you switch into other trick mons), Spiking on pivots is free, running coverage for things like Koko and Lele is great, and still hitting Garchomp while transforming from defensive wall (dshield mew) to scarf utility is awesome.

The EV spread is to speed creep people who are speed creeping people who are speed creeping other people (who might be speed creeping people) and outspeeds random +speed Heatran (on ladder they're scarfed sometimes). I bolded the set(s) I like to use the most, but realistically you can cram whatever you want onto scarf mew if your team calls for it. If you haven't tried using this on teams, I suggest you give it a go :]


E: I don't run Psychic anymore bc it does like 3% to everything it hits, just use better moves please
 
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Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
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PUPL Champion
The bug has been squashed...


Genesect is banned from AAA!
Thanks again to everyone who got reqs and voted in a truly massive suspect test! We will update sample teams and the VR post-World Cup, but please feel free to start giving us sample teams, VR noms, or general post-Genesect metagame thoughts!

Rip in peace The Flagship I am crying rn
ezgif-1-33be3d4b25.gif


Very glad Genesect has been banned. I want to apologize for my conduct during the suspect test; a lot of anti-ban arguments seemed to me like "this mon is a massive MU fish that doesn't really provide any value to the meta but it can be prepped for so it's fine", which was really confusing and upset me a lot considering I've been 6-0ed by the funny bug with good teams more times than I can count. Regardless, this is a very big constraint removed from building, which I see as a net positive. I hope Tapu Koko is at least considered for a suspect soon, I've stated my opinion on it way too many times to bear repeating but it was definitely #2 on my list of "shit that needs to go imo".
 
The bug has been squashed...


Genesect is banned from AAA!
Thanks again to everyone who got reqs and voted in a truly massive suspect test! We will update sample teams and the VR post-World Cup, but please feel free to start giving us sample teams, VR noms, or general post-Genesect metagame thoughts!

Rip in peace The Flagship I am crying rn
thank you aaa for removing one of the biggest threats to my team, stall lords rise

I genuinely think it isn't that broken but then again not everyone is running what I run, nevertheless it was still a solid option vs me

due to a combination of lazyness and indifference I decided not to vote, I await the new niche breaker that will rise to challenge me

It's not a regen scarf Genesect (I think this is better than gene anyway), but...

:SS/Mew:
Mew @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 156 Spe
Bold / Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Ice Beam / Triple Axel / Gunk Shot / Flamethrower
- Volt Switch / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
- Teleport / Will-O-Wisp / Flip Turn / U-turn / Thunder Wave

Choice Scarf Regen Mew is already a set that exists, but because I put this mon on probably 4 out of every 5 teams I build, I figured I'd make a post about it. Even without dauntless shield, Mew's overall bulk is pretty incredible, and it plays the role of "dancing around threats until I can figure out how to win with my guys" extremely well, because a lot of strong attackers (CB Terrakion, PsySurge Azelf, Garchomp, Zapdos (both G and K) are not quite able to OHKO and/or get abused by regen pivot scouting. Additionally, Mew's utility just makes it generally incredible at complicating matchups enough for you to come out on top: Trick threatens all the bulky mons (and also means you switch into other trick mons), Spiking on pivots is free, running coverage for things like Koko and Lele is great, and still hitting Garchomp while transforming from defensive wall (dshield mew) to scarf utility is awesome.

The EV spread is to speed creep people who are speed creeping people who are speed creeping other people (who might be speed creeping people) and outspeeds random +speed Heatran (on ladder they're scarfed sometimes). I bolded the set(s) I like to use the most, but realistically you can cram whatever you want onto scarf mew if your team calls for it. If you haven't tried using this on teams, I suggest you give it a go :]


E: I don't run Psychic anymore bc it does like 3% to everything it hits, just use better moves please
this set does much more vs stall than scarf gene ever did, grats and I can't wait for this to become the meta and annoying

Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Knock Off

Does anyone remember when this + Scarf Dragapult was the truth 2 years ago? Basically same idea as Tinted Tapu Lele except you get to singlehandedly remove the assault vest from Jirachi to try and 2HKO it with Moonblast later. Otherwise, it's good on teams where you can manufacture ways to pivot it in.

Oh yeah, I built a team with it: https://pokepast.es/c064a88fb43cfe95. It has a 100% winrate vs everything it doesn't lose to.
does this thing even break chansey after knock off

yes I could do the calcs but what do I look like, some kind of contributor, I actually prefer not to know because if I don't understand it I can't fear it

Hello to all. I recently decided, encouraged by the victory of my compatriots in WCOP, to join the WCOOM in order not to miss this event which is always rich in all respects. So I had to get back into AAA: I read the discussions around the metagame, I tried to build some teams, I played on the ladder (resulting in a degradation of my mental health, which is not always a bad thing in AAA, and which may explain this post). It's pretty clear to most players that the state of the meta is not satisfactory, and I agree. It is also clear that no solution proposed so far satisfies everyone. In this post, I propose a new and exciting solution: unban Neutralizing Gas (and implement SAC). Please keep reading. I will give a quick summary of the metagame's problems, then summarize the solutions so far proposed and explain quickly why they are only partially satisfactory (those two parts you can skip if you're up to date with the discussions), and finally I will defend my position.

The Problems

One just has to try and build a good team to realize that it is very difficult to afford counterplay against all the threats in the tier. There are simply too many of them and they are diverse, which makes it necessary to make choices, for example (as The Number Man said in his excellent post) between breakers that are useful defensively but easy to counter and breakers that are useless defensively but difficult to counter. A very significant proof of this is that for every non-HO sample team, though very solid and built by a competent player, I can find a relatively common breaker against which it has very little to no counterplay at all - not even speaking about more niche breakers that they may lose to (stuff like specs Primsea Volcanion, Tinted Mienshao, etc.). I don't think that anyone in their right mind, considering this fact, can believe that doing nothing is the right solution (Osake :messi:).
Koko + Moltres Balance by beauts + The Number Man :genesect: :garchomp: :tapu Koko: :toxapex: :moltres: :mew: TC Zarude

Koko + Gapdos Offense
by xavgb :tapu koko: :blissey: :zapdos-galar: :excadrill: :golisopod: :mew: DLand Cinderace

RegenScarf Latias Balance
by astralydia :zapdos: :zarude: :latias: :landorus-therian: :heatran: :corviknight: Barraskewda

Double Band Bulky Offense
by UT :zarude: :terrakion: :corviknight: :chansey: :swampert: :azelf: Taunt Heatran

Inteleon + Chandelure Balance
by The Number Man :inteleon: :chandelure: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :blissey: :skarmory: TC Zarude

Suicune + BIG ZYG Fat
by beauts + The Number Man :heatran: :zygarde-10%: :tapu koko: :ferrothorn: :suicune: :mandibuzz: Terrakion

Doublade + Bounce Koko Fat
by beauts :doublade: :garchomp: :tapu koko: :chansey: :slowbro: :mandibuzz: TC Zarude

Talonflame + Lele Balance
by xavgb :nidoqueen: :skarmory: :blissey: :talonflame: :rotom-wash: :tapu lele: MG Zapdos-G

Koko + Zarude Bulky Offense
by UT :corviknight: :heatran: :tapu fini: :zarude: :tapu koko: :blissey: Cinderace
This leads to the second problem, which is intertwined with the previous one (they are not two separate problems), which is the excessive importance of the matchup in the outcome of games. This factor is not only implied by what I said in the previous paragraph, but it is accentuated by several other parameters. 1) The lack of fast threats makes HO too attractive, and it is the archetype most subject to matchup variance. 2) The presence of polarized breakers, which require to choose among a restricted panel of counters, like SFLO Lele or Pixilate Koko. 3) The Regen cores, whose matchup in a game between two BOs is an extremely impactful parameter for the outcome of the game, and which forbid defensive pokémons to make progress, which makes it more difficult to outplay difficult matchups.


Short critical review of proposed solutions

The problems raised cannot be solved by a small change, like banning Genesect or Tapu Koko, or even Magic Guard. The situation requires a greater change: this is addressed, with all due respect, to the council. The Magic Bounce and Unburden ban was modest in that its impact on the meta (though positive in my opinion) was small. It is not desirable for the meta to remain this way during WCOOM.

Don't feel obliged to read everything, you won't find anything new here.

Pros: Building is restricted by breakers? Some breakers rely too much on guessing games? The easiest solution is to ban them. Genesect, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Magic Guard have been mentioned by several players whose value is unquestionable. Sheer Force, Psychic Surge, Tinted Lens, Primal Weathers are mentioned by some. All of these are restrictive in their own way, some more than others.

Cons: We don't want to stray too far from our "base", which is still OU. Also, we are afraid that if we banish these threats, others will come that are just as problematic or polarizing. We are afraid that it is in the nature of AAA to have breakers like this. I include myself in that "we". This may be the most logical solution, but it is also the most engaging, and the least predictable in its consequences.
Pros: We lack defensive solutions and versatile breakers? It is natural to look for them in the banlist. Poison Heal is sometimes mentioned (always in conjunction with SAC), as well as Blacephalon and Weavile.

Cons: The easy answer is to say that we banned these items for a reason. This is not without truth, but the metagame has changed since then, and it could be argued that their impact will not be the same. On Blacephalon and Weavile, I think that the impact of an unban would be insufficient to solve our problems, not to mention that it is dangerous, especially for Weavile. On PH + SAC, see the next paragraph.
Pros: By far the element of the metagame most affected by a potential SAC is Regen. As I said earlier, Regen cores increase the weight of the matchup, and do not seem to be a healthy element for the meta. I had produced a detailed argument in French for SAC, or even ban Regen (I'll translate it if anyone asks, but I'm lazy at the moment). To counterbalance the hit that defensive cores would take in passing, many have suggested unbanning PH at the same time, which seems reasonable, though it's understandable that some are afraid of PH Snorlax and Fini's return.

Cons: The reasons against this measure seem to me to be more technical than meta-related. Still, it should be pointed out that this is definitely not the right time to strike a blow to the flexibility of defensive cores; and one can understand the reluctance of some to unban Pheal.


My The Solution : unban Neutralizing Gas (and implement SAC)

Why NGas solves our problems


Neutralizing Gas is an ability for both defensive and offensive use. Defensively, it offers the possibility to cancel out opposing breakers abilities to better manage them. For example, NGas Corv is a good check to all Zarudes combined, or NGas Lando-T handles Pixilate Tapu Koko and Primsea Zapdos - there are many options. Offensively NGas Heatran obviously comes to mind, denying all immunity to Magma Storm and Toxic (note that Regen Pert/Chomp are still counters); but also for example NGas Terrakion, which denies Intimidate and Dshield, etc. It seems to me that the defensive use of NGas is more significant than its offensive use, although both are true.

- In this way, NGas helps to solve the problem of restricted defensive cores, since it is not a niche tool, but is always useful - it avoids situations where the wall is useless (as is sometimes the case when you use FF Corv against a team without fire attacks, and in the many examples of this kind). It is easy to insert into a team. Furthermore, if you look at the elements of the metagame that are considered problematic, they are often not totally obliterated by NGas, but rather diminished. The most obvious example is Magic Guard, against which NGas offers reasonable counterplay. Koko and Zarude also come to mind. Genesect is probably still broken lol.
- By its offensive use, which some might consider to negate the ability's interest for the flexibility of defensive cores, the ability actually helps solve the problem of breaker polarization. For example, NGas Cinderace is much less afraid of facing a counter than Dland Cinderace, since it can click Pyro Ball and maintain momentum (similar, in fact, to how breakers work in OU). You just have better Mold Breaker (since you also deny weathers and terrains), and I assume most people find that ability to be fine (and quite cool) offensively. Heatran obviously becomes very strong, but it really just reverts to its situation in OU, where you have to deal with it without Flash Fire or Primsea.
- Is it necessary to argue for the usefulness of NGas against Magic Guard and Regen cores?

Why NGas isn't broken

So far you probably agree, but you're probably wondering if NGas is not totally unhealthy for the meta, or even broken. This leads us to ask: why, and under what circumstances, was NGas banned? And the answer is: in a chaotic and underdeveloped meta, at a time when it wasn't working properly on PS! (and obviously without SAC). You can find here the reasoning of the council members at the time for their choice, and here the ban announcement in this thread. On the broken character of NGas (this is not the main argument against it), I frankly find it hard to see. I can't think of a breaker with that ability that would be broken. Maybe Heatran, but then again Regen grounds are still counters, so we arguably have more tools against it than they do in OU. Giving up something like Intimidate or an immunity ability for it isn't the easiest of choices. Same offensively.

Now, on the idea that NGas destroys the "soul of the tier", or the idea that it is too centralizing, or that it offers too many possibilities, this is certainly the case without SAC. Without SAC, it is pretty clear that two NGas users per team would be problematic - I don't think I need to elaborate. With SAC, a choice is forced between defensive or offensive use of the ability, on a single user. I don't think this is enough to totally warp the meta like a black hole. It's a strong ability, and I don't pretend that the change I'm proposing is a small change - I'm even glad it's a drastic change - drastic enough to reshape the meta, but not to completely overthrow it. I think the VR would look aproximately the same - at least nothing will disappear and nothing should rise out of nowhere.


In conclusion, and to summarize, the meta has problems that keep some valuable players away from AAA. Several solutions have been proposed previously, but none of them seems to be unanimous, far from it. I propose a new solution: unban Neutralizing Gas. This involves implementing SAC, which is a fairly natural change, since the two major reasons against SAC are canceled by NGas (the last reason against it being, it seems, a technical one, which I hope isn't insurmountable). Obviously, unbanning PH immediately comes to mind, and it's probably a good idea to do it in the process - given that the ability is severely restricted by NGas anyway, but it offers some nice defensive options, balancing somewhat the loss of a second Regen slot. I hope this idea makes some people as enthusiastic as it does for me. I would be happy to hear some opinions. I hope you won't resign yourself to not make any changes just because gen9 is near - but I know that could not be your intention.
if you unban ngas then all defensive counterplay to heatran is once again ruined, might as well play ou then, I'm loading up the magic guard moltres as we speak, maybe regen goodra, maybe regen altaria, can't wait
 

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