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Kingimmick (Kingambit) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 17 Spe
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Metal Burst
Let me introduce you to metal burst kingambit which takes hits and fires them back only to regen said hits later. This can be used against non boosting body press corviknight, non specs sandy shocks, roaring moon, etc. It can be used as a lead to surprise other leads like sandy shocks and meowscarada with a devastating metal burst. First issue is that it takes up your regenerator slot so that other things can't use it. Second issue is that the moment you use metal burst it is no longer hidden so use surprise factor effectively! Third issue is that pokemon like donphan and iron treads like to use knock off instead of earthquake predicting you to swap.
Note: I got some experience using the set but not the most experience.
17 ivs allow you to underspeed level 99 corv
What evs are for:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Kingambit: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I wanted a team that fulfills two requirements:
1) Uses Offensive Tatsugiri
2) Crams as many sheer damage amp abilities as possible onto said team
Here's what I pieced together:
The Masquerain is ripped directly from Quantum Tesseract's webs teams and is pretty nice at actually threatening stuff outside of throwing up webs, and the rest of the team is literally just what it looks like at face value. Get in, try and click buttons, go next--and hopefully, Gyarados can clean. Enjoy :P
"How do you beat [insert here]?" Dunno, that's not my problem LOL I just wanted a fun team. If something doesn't work, feel free to change it (or leave the team in the trash)
E: The Lucario being Steel Beam isn't a mistake. The idea is to use it to self-KO if needed while still being an ansburdly powerful move.
While Blitz's post is slightly hyperbolic, I do think it illustrates a real point: it is consistently difficult to reliably check the special attackers in this tier. Since the FurScales suspect test, there have obviously been a bevy of bans, both physical and special attackers, and for the most part, I would say we are in a position that most physical attackers can be accounted for relatively consistently (even if Kingambit is a bastard). However, with each subsequent ban on special attackers, it always feels there's a next man up; sure Noivern and Dragapult are gone, but Gengar and Iron Moth are now borderline oppressive. We also have a range of slower nuclear wallbreakers like Tinted Gardevoir and Hydregion that can blow up conventional counterplay. People are running Purifying Salt Clodsire to check the Ghosts, surely we can do better :sob:
Fundamentally, we have a much wider range of counterplay to common physical attackers. Fluffy and Intimidate are still splashable and common abilities with no special counterpart, contact punishment like Rocky Helmet and Flame Body exists, and of course, BURNS. We also have a greater array of naturally physically defensive mons than special, and many of the naturally specially bulky mons (looking at you, Blissey) have been heavily gimped by movepool cuts.
The only particularly noteworthy specially defensive tech compared to physically is RegenVest, which comes with the obvious downsides of forgoing status moves and taking the coveted Regen slot. When confronted with such a wide array of special attackers, its clear that a single RegenVester cannot cover them all. Sure, Roaring Moon is a nice check to Iron Moth, Greninja, and Gengar when Focus Blast misses, but it gets blown up by Gardevoir and Hatterene.
Vessel of Ruin also exists of course, but is in most cases inadequate; it offers a smaller boost than either Intimidate or Fluffy on the physical side and is at its best equal to the damage amp offered by Hadron Engine and Beads of Ruin.
This brings me to my modest proposal:
Re-test Ice Scales
To be clear, I am more looking to start a conversation on it than say "start the test rfn," but I do think it is a conversation worth having for a few reasons.
By far the biggest complaint about FurScales at the time was how well it enabled bulky setup. Mons like Volcarona, Gholdengo, Polteagiest, and even fat guess like Florges could patch up their weaker Defense, boost reliably and repeatedly thanks to recovery, and win. I would argue that Fur Coat was the bigger culprit regarding bulky setup, not Ice Scales.
Most FurScales setup mons either used Calm Mind / Quiver Dance or Bulk Up / Curse + Fur Coat or Ice Scales to patch up both defenses at once. However, the vast majority of setup users at the time were Fur Coat mons; why? Chiefly, access to reliable recovery is much more prevalent on Calm Mind users, meaning they had a far more reliable time accruing multiple boosts. Additionally, they could not be crippled with burns while setting up, Intimidate cycled, didn't need to fear Rocky Helmet, etc.
Why tier Ice Scales separately from Fur Coat when they do the same thing? Fundamentally, they have very different impacts on the metagame. As alluded to, there is a much greater range of viable physically defensive Pokemon and abilities, meaning that physical attackers already have a tougher time getting going and are less able to take advantage of bulky setup.
What setup guys would be broken with Ice Scales in the current metagame? Of ones with reliable recovery + setup move, only Garganacl and Corviknight stand out to me, and Garg is saddled with a poor typing while Corv is streached thin trying to fit coverage + being our only usable Defogger. Of mons without reliable recovery but might be more dangerous, there are more considerations like Kingambit, Garchomp, and Dondozo, but all of them still have their own drawbacks and fewer chances to setup (or are moderately problematic anyway like Kingambit).
I personally believe that we have roughly arrived at the point that physical attackers can now be reasonably accounted for with existing counterplay, but that several more bans on top of the existing ones are needed before special attackers can be consistently checked. Before continuing down that path, I want to ask: is it worth considering a re-rest of Ice Scales?
The fact that something random like Bulk up Quaq would sleepwalk through just about any set from that entire exaggerated watch list if it had Ice Scales tells me all I need to know. Bulky set up with these abilities are just too much of a problem, that's my 2 cents
The fact that something random like Bulk up Quaq would sleepwalk through just about any set from that entire exaggerated watch list if it had Ice Scales tells me all I need to know. Bulky set up with these abilities are just too much of a problem, that's my 2 cents
yeah but surely not aqua step through all of them right, right? 252+ SpA Hadron Engine Sandy Shocks Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Quaquaval in Electric Terrain: 231-273 (61.7 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The fact that something random like Bulk up Quaq would sleepwalk through just about any set from that entire exaggerated watch list if it had Ice Scales tells me all I need to know. Bulky set up with these abilities are just too much of a problem, that's my 2 cents
^ Yea, this is my main issue with unbanning Ice Scales. Until the day comes where we can complex ban this + setup, it’s just going to introduce silly setup sweepers that are gonna be at the forefront of the ban hammer instead.
Instead, I want to propose something that could work out long-term (pending Home stuff, of course). What about removing options from special attackers in order to limit their power? Hadron Engine, Beads of Ruin, and Sheer Force stand out as THE enablers for such strong special attackers. The first two are new abilities that AAA hasn’t been subjected to prior, while SF is something that hasn’t been considered broken before, but in this gen particularly enables said broken special attackers and makes them more oppressive than they should be.
Now, this IS three abilities, so the collateral is greater than just unbanning Ice Scales. I’m not saying we should axe all three, but consider the fact that they can be interchangeable (prime example in Iron Moth being able to viably run all 3) and it might not be enough. That said, limiting the amount of abilities these mons can run could increase counterplay and put less of a strain in the builder.
Hell, this solution might not even address the problem in the sense that, say, we ban Beads / Hadron, and we still have to ban some egregious abusers regardless, and in turn the collateral would be greater than just nuking the abusers outright. But I think it is something to consider if the alternative is “go down the list of Special Attackers til we’re satisfied with the ones that are left”.
Instead, I want to propose something that could work out long-term (pending Home stuff, of course). What about removing options from special attackers in order to limit their power? Hadron Engine, Beads of Ruin, and Sheer Force stand out as THE enablers for such strong special attackers.
First off, these type of abilities were never problematic in aaa before. Except maybe Hadron Engine as it differs and gives higher %'s but thats yet to be seen.
More importantly, this doesnt change all too much. Special attackers as a whole are going to be less good, but not in the way you want i suspect. Whats functionally different from them loading up Adapability? Weather abilities give an even bigger 1.5x boost along with other benefits. Even Terrains are/have been viable boosting options. Certain combos like Magic Guard + Steel Beam still hit the higher damage numbers. Mega Launcher Hydreigon, Dragon's Maw, Flare Boost, -Ates (okay im going off the deep end here with this list).
These all will be technically worse and have more cplay options, but the high damage options still remain.
First off, these type of abilities were never problematic in aaa before. Except maybe Hadron Engine as it differs and gives higher %'s but thats yet to be seen.
More importantly, this doesnt change all too much. Special attackers as a whole are going to be less good, but not in the way you want i suspect. Whats functionally different from them loading up Adapability? Weather abilities give an even bigger 1.5x boost along with other benefits. Even Terrains are/have been viable boosting options. Certain combos like Magic Guard + Steel Beam still hit the higher damage numbers. Mega Launcher Hydreigon, Dragon's Maw, Flare Boost, -Ates (okay im going off the deep end here with this list).
These all will be technically worse and have more cplay options, but the high damage options still remain.
I would like to point out the obvious first (Adaptability only impacts STAB moves whereas the other three impact coverage moves as well, primal weather abilities only boost a specific type as opposing to literally everything, Terrains suffer from having only a single viable Expanding Force/Rising Voltage user in Armarouge which is mid anyway, etc), and then state that the biggest difference in banning these abilities is that special attackers are more pigeonholed into what abilities they can use due to SAC. If you use Adaptability on something like Chi-Yu, that means your physical attacker can't and has to go the subpar Tough Claws or reveal its set with Sword of Ruin; or you can go a nicher breaker like Hydreigon and eat the cost of using it in builder. Some Pokemon like Chi-Yu or Hydreigon realistically don't care about the above 3 abilities being banned, but for Pokemon like Gengar, this means things like Dazzling Gleam not OHKOing your AV Roaring Moon after Rocks (252 SpA Life Orb Beads of Ruin Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 374-442 (90.5 - 107%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) or Zoro-H not being able to brute force its way past RegenVest Garchomp with NP Icy Wind (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Garchomp: 426-504 (101.4 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO). My point is with the 3 abilities mentioned, there is a reduced opprotunity cost to using special breakers since they rarely have to give up anything to use them; but if they were gone, special attackers would be more strapped for options. Would this balance special attackers completely? Maybe not, but I believe it's an option worth pursing if adding stuff is not an option.
The fact that something random like Bulk up Quaq would sleepwalk through just about any set from that entire exaggerated watch list if it had Ice Scales tells me all I need to know. Bulky set up with these abilities are just too much of a problem, that's my 2 cents
Here's a quick list of all the mons that get BU and recovery.
Out of the viable mons we have that would leave us with Quaquaval (probably busted), Scream Tail (maybe busted since Unaware sets and BU sets would have different counterplay but I think there's enough to keep it balanced), Corviknight (bad) and maybe Slither Wing might see some usage. For argument's sake let's add Garg and the NFEs with BU (Primeape, Vigroroth, Ursaring, etc) to the list. Outside of Qua I realistically can't see any of these becoming broken with just Ice Scales being legal, and if just one mon is broken due to this, then I think the cost of unbanning Ice Scales would be worth it.
I didn't know AAA was so different from one side of the Atlantic to the other! Joking aside, mentionning such unset (at the moment at least) seems completely irrelevant to me. What do you mean by "people"? I barely see Clodsire on ladder and from my knowledge (limited), I've never seen that thing in my life. It's an argument to make the situation dramatic and urgent when in fact, it's not. And if it was a thing or becomes one, then we seriously have to worry about both Gengar and H-Zoro being too much lmao.
Note that Purifying Salt starts to appear for 1630 and 1760 stats but considering the Average Weight criterion, this is quite irrelevant; it just means a few high rated players used this set and again, still 1 over 10 Clodsire lol.
The only particularly noteworthy specially defensive tech compared to physically is RegenVest, which comes with the obvious downsides of forgoing status moves and taking the coveted Regen slot. When confronted with such a wide array of special attackers, its clear that a single RegenVester cannot cover them all. Sure, Roaring Moon is a nice check to Iron Moth, Greninja, and Gengar when Focus Blast misses, but it gets blown up by Gardevoir and Hatterene.
Indeed, a single RegenVester isn't able to cover the wide spectra of special attackers... so what? Intimidate/Fluffy Corviknight isn't able to cover every physical attacker too? And yeah, even when paired with Roaring Moon RegenVest, you're still far from patching everything?
I don't understand the magical thinking by which we should find defensive answer to everything in a team? As stated in my previous post, this is impossible considering the game we're playing and therefore shouldn't be a goal to achieve for every team but stall at the limit. This is again a particularly defensive oriented view of the game we're playing by considering we need to cover (defensively) as many things as we can to win a game. This is just a part of the iceberg. Winning a game is all about making progress and/or preventing the opponent to make some. Otherwise Offense style will not exist because they don't answer things defensively right? Now looking at balance vs balance with let's say, even match-up, the game is decided by skill. The skill to better make progress than your opponent. See your wincons, manage to prevent the scary breaker to enter the field, find midgrounds and properly judge 50/50, etc. It's much more than just picking a counter/check to every breakers.
So yeah, in balanced styles we try to cover correctly the most relevant threats (offensively and defensively; a team not breaking Intimi Corv is unviable for instance) but your defensive core will always get broken by something. This is even more true in OMs in general. Hopefully this "something" should have drawbacks meaning, in practise, even though that's a bad MU for you (part of the game), you can find counterplay in-game.
That being said, does the metagame really suffer at this point from too many special threats? First, let's picture more accurately these threats:
( )()
Has less usage than Spidops, Toxtricity or Goodra? 3.42% to be precise. Not saying it's bad but it's quite irrelevant in the conversation considering such low usages. Barely exist considering Roaring Moon and Garganacl are top SpD mon and many things handle it overall like SpD/AV Garchomp, WBB Kingambit/Slither, Psea Greninja (as check), etc. 3.09% usage.
Among the other, we should notice that Volcarona is more of a sweeper and Lucario is considered a mixed breaker (and therefore extremely effective to break defensive core by AAA standards).
Realistically among them, I can only see 3 that are walking on the red line, Iron Moth, Gengar and H-Zoroark. Sandy Shocks's effectiveness depends often a lot of the MU and your ability to pick correctly when facing immunities. Volcarona is also a MU fishy element relying on the absence of counterplay to autowin (not that with Dragonite gone it could be better). Lucario is excellent at breaking fat teams thanks to its deadly STAB combination with high base power moves and mixed potential. However it's not that fast and almost completely lacks defensive utility meaning it's hard to enter against any sufficiently offensive team. Hydreigon takes advantage of Dragon mon like Roaring Moon or Garchomp often being special sponge. Speed tier below average and low defensive utility however. Finally, we hear a lot about Gardevoir recently, because, like Hydreigon, it abuses Dragon but just a reminder this mon is slower than Slither Wing for instance and offers, again, almost no defensive utility. LO/Specs Gardevoir is only working against (some) balanced-fat realistically.
Now I want to mention that, finding counterplays to these mon often doesn't require RegenVest or special damages reducer like Vessel of Ruin.
can be walled by any VA + Flying or EE + Ground. SpD Dragons works well vs it. A bit unhealthy however. often depends a lot from rain + Specs boosted Water move to really make damages so Desolated Land Iron Moth + anything taking Dark Pulse and Ice Beam works pretty well to play around. Not taking mixed variant into account there. Specs is extremely difficult to answer considering DM 2HKO Garga SpD under sand. Only things like Tinkaton, Regen SpD Ting-Lu, Blissey or Prank Clodsire somehow allow to play against this defensively. The counterplay here is definitely more offensive one by preventing it from entering the field too much (being weak to U-Turn or Body Press helps that). Both Specs Tinted and Specs/LO Hadron Engine/BoR are hard to switch-in yeah. Garga does still a great job handling it. SpD Regen Tinkaton works well.
Overall the effectiveness/cost ratio of these mon makes them balanced to me (for me and for now at least).
Now when talking about Iron Moth, Gengar and H-Zoroark, things are different.
First, Desolate Land pivot set is fine and a great glue in the metagame. Now when we're looking at Dazzling Gleam variants and fully offensive ones (Hadron/BoR/SFLO), that's not the same. With or without RegenVest, handling Iron Moth crazy Spa and dumb coverage is hard. WBB is 2HKO by Hadron Engine Discharge and WBB Iron Treads by Energy Ball. The only limiting factor from fully offensive variant comes from its bad longevity (SR + LO damages often). Offensive counterplay is also limited due to its speed tier.
& I take them together because they're quite similar even though H-Zoroark has pivot utility. Basically finding a reliable counterplay depends on the set or focus misses. Both can effectively run SFLO set or Specs BoR one with crazy damage output. Both can abuse status to cripple certain counterplay (WoW Roaring Moon or Garchomp for instance). Gengar has better secondary STAB and better coverage. H-Zoro can get rid of Assault Vest with Knock Off and is just unwallable by virtue of U-Turn momentum. Offensive counterplay is limited again by their speed. Gengar can't be revenge killed by priorities like First Impression from Tinted Slither Wing or Draining Kiss from Hatterene.
These things are dangerous and the ones we should talk about and keep in mind in the future because they might be broken.
Here's a comparison about physically offensive threats btw:
()
They are more numerous than special ones technically although less polarised (some like Garchomp or Kingambit are bulky breaker requiring setup to break). There's no Intimidate or Fluffy mon able to check them all like there's no RegenVest able to handle every special threats.
By far the biggest complaint about FurScales at the time was how well it enabled bulky setup. Mons like Volcarona, Gholdengo, Polteagiest, and even fat guess like Florges could patch up their weaker Defense, boost reliably and repeatedly thanks to recovery, and win. I would argue that Fur Coat was the bigger culprit regarding bulky setup, not Ice Scales.
Most FurScales setup mons either used Calm Mind / Quiver Dance or Bulk Up / Curse + Fur Coat or Ice Scales to patch up both defenses at once. However, the vast majority of setup users at the time were Fur Coat mons; why? Chiefly, access to reliable recovery is much more prevalent on Calm Mind users, meaning they had a far more reliable time accruing multiple boosts. Additionally, they could not be crippled with burns while setting up, Intimidate cycled, didn't need to fear Rocky Helmet, etc.
I do agree with some of your points about how it differs from Fur Coat especially when it comes to setup (CM FC was a real nightmare and I know only too well about bulky setup issues involving CM). However, I want to mention that recovery is certainly not something needed to make an Ice Scales setup to work as you mentionned. I still think bulky setup involving Ice Scales will appear and become annoying even though it should be more limited. In particular SD based one with a much broader distribution than BU things.
Now something has to be mentionned. Ice Scales, even without bulky setup, is quite dumb. It's something that has not been really taken into account during the suspect due to how broken was everything but such defensive boost is insane. It's an element powerful enough to go from a situation in which some special breaker are borderline broken to a situation where almost anything with recovery can become a check to these known as borderline things (Slither Wing, Toxapex, Hippowdon, etc) and even without by abusing Rest if required.
The impact of Ice Scales will therefore be to slow down a lot the metagame considering it acts as a huge nerf to special attackers. Especially considering some Regenslots could be free to defensively help answer other things. But where do we start from? The metagame is currently quite balanced but we see fat teams having success somehow a proof of things being manageable defensively. Without a doubt, free Ice Scales will make it more fat, something which is not particularly desirable especially considering the current state is balanced. It's quite easy to understand people will run Intimidate/Fluffy + Regen + Ice Scales everywhere and find out they have 3 remaining slots to still cover things because breaking through such opposing defensive combination will likely be harder and more MU reliant than just mindlessly add Unaware Scream Tail and 1-2 more defensives mon lol. I personally believe it will be a distater for the fun of every people not interested in spamming extremely fat teams (follow my gaze).
And I'm repeating the same point again (see my previous post), it's completely wrong to think the current metagame is in a terrible state about special threats so we have to take actions. Between Corv, Regen, immunities, bulky enough mon to provide some defensive utility and offensive counterplay, you should be able to deal with a wide range of things. But ofc you can't cover everything and you will encounter bad and even unwinnable MU, this is the reality of our game and even more OMs one.
If a watchlist has to be done for the future (not too near), here what it should look like:
Pokemon:
Abilities:
Hadron Engine
Beads of Ruin
Sheer Force
If we think something will have to be done to overall nerf special threats
TL;DR: Just read smh. Metagame is quite good currently with just a few things to look out. There's no need for Ice Scales and free it will make things worst but differently.
In terms of the potential of IceScale bulky setup, while maybe more limited in what can directly abuse it, I would also say to not underestimate how much can truly abuse it (regardless of reliable recovery or not). Given a doubling of one defense side is enough to make an unholy amount of things work, especially when there is less overall cost to sacrificing your Ice Scales slot (we've managed to handle special attackers kind of up to this point, excluding the Ghosts).
Just quickly looking at what you could possibly abuse it, Quav is the most obvious but Braviary is also a pretty good pick that is seemingly ignored for no reason (good bulk on both sides, reliable recovery, alright typing and the thing starts hurting pretty quickly). Corviknight, SlitherWing, Garganacl could abuse IceScales reasonably and hell you could even slap it on stuff like Hariyama, Dondozo and I ran an Ice Scales Ceruledge to moderate success during FurScales.
Maybe you could sus them out individually at this point? I'd rather just see some action against the Ghosts at the very least given they are a large part of the problem before revisiting the horror that is "252 SpA Hadron Engine Sandy Shocks Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Dondozo in Electric Terrain: 229-270 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery"
I've seen things on the ladder, by that I mean Toxic Debris
Toxic Debris is an ability that deploys 1 layer of Toxic Spikes when hit with a contact move. I haven't seen any very specific pokemon run toxic debris; Well mainly because it's a surprise factor unless they would know not to hit you with physical moves making your ability redundant. I haven't seen people running toxic debris on many pokemon, but some pokemon I have seen are...
Hazard Setting Garchomp and Dragapult (Banned though, lmao). I couldddd turn this into a Garchomp Utility focus, but I believe Toxic Debris is... an ability.
The issue is... no pokemon has been outright made for this. This ability requires something to purposely take a hit, from specifically a contact move. There may be a chance the opponent just doesn't attack and switches into a different pokemon with no contact moves. Most contact moves are physical, so you need a bulky wall that can still take a physical attack and add utility to that turn and make sure hazard removal doesn't happen. It should also have a good move against poison a switch-in.
Now your first thought might be something like clodsire, but I think a different niche is in order.
Introducing... Palossand!!!
Palossand @ Leftovers/Colbur Berry/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Hex
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock
You can also run an assault vest set for non-contact moves
Palossand @ Assault Vest
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
- Earth Power
- Hex
- Sand Tomb
- Energy Ball / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb
This is the best thing I could come up with. I mean I haven't even seen Palossand being mentioned since Poison Heal. The Ghost typing helps with outright rapid spins and the opponent will probably not have toxic debris as their first thought. It's still palossand and it could have a slight niche. However, at the end of the day, nobody really uses toxic spikes.
Garganacl is a very solid toxic debris mon also since with corv being the only good defogger and poison types that come in after a u-turn don't really like getting salt cured in the face, it heavily pressures teams that either don't have a magic guard mon that can beat garg 1v1 or don't have a rapid spinner
GIVE ME MORE (Garganacl) @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Recover
It also functions as well, standard defensive garg not much else to say
Lemme clue folks in on a secret, in gen 8 Gengar was banned! The two biggest special abusers this generation also happen to be ghosts! What does this mean? Well... Ghost typing is busted offensively, a relic of an era where such notions of balance were nonexistent (gen 1). The solution, however, isn't to start wiping the slate of abilities nor unleashing a volatile troublemaker aka Ice Scales but rather to ban or suspect the two ghosts. Every other special attacker besides these two have a greater degree of actual counterplay or apparent flaws that hold them back.
Hydreigon's usual sets struggle to break many of the fairy types common in the meta, especially if they are geared to check special threats (Sylveon and Florges being top of the list of shit Hydreigon dreads). It is also not that fast and specs sets often have to run away after attacking once (Draco Meteor).
Tinted Gardevoir merely preys on our reliance of steel types and resists, against stuff like Garganacl it gasps like a beached fish. This is also on top of being frail and slow, both problems that can't be solved easily. Heck, even if it gets off a Focus Blast, it is then locked into it and you can just switch.
Iron Moth is a pain if SFLO or Beads or Hadron, however, this comes with the opportunity costs of not running a more supportive set and often lacking HDB (Heavy Duty Boots). The presence of hazards dampens the effectiveness of it severely on top of various immunities being popular means it comes down to 50/50's against stuff like Corviknight that may or may be running either WBB or VA (or something else entirely). Examples of problems it faces, the team has Corv, Garg, and Roaring Moon, you have at best 2 chances to predict the right switchin, at worst 1, matchups like this means you can never really confidently destroy an opponent especially when hazards are brought into the scenario, and top it all off HBD sets are much more easily handled. SFLO sets suffer from being forced to run Dazzling Gleam or be pressured by Moon, Hadron and Beads both suffer from either chip damage from LO (most run Specs) or being locked into one option. These flaws hold it back from being overwhelming, with much of the meta adapted to it since release.
My point with this is that if there is issues with certain special attackers then we should tackle them rather then circumventing their banning with various other "solutions". I don't consider things like Sandy Shocks, Chi-Yu, and so forth problematic so it really does come down to two ghosts being thorns in the proverbial keister.
Maybe instead of banning anything that requires a little planning or problem solving beyond "try and beat every special attacker with one teambuilding slot" mentality?
Meowscarada one taps ghosts with Knock Off and naturally outspeeds.
Iron Treads with enough speed investments can outspeed after one Spin. (Click Knock/Quake for free)
Qua with 112 EVs after one spin/aqua step can one shot Gengar.
Clods naturally beats Iron Moth - and if its not DesoBoots like Gia said it loses to hazards really hard.
What happened to fast Moon with regen? What happened to Sucker Punch? Chien Pao????
Look at tournament outcomes, all we see is balance wars with maybe one setup sweeper or two. The more we ban, the more something else comes into the power vaccuum and causes "problems". Unbanning Ice Scales accomplishes what exactly? Slot efficiency fantasies in teambuilder? Not every offensive threat needs an equally defensive answer. There are many aggressive options in Pokemon that let you check a threat with a deadlier offense. This all boils down to typing.
Everyone agrees Ghost is a problematic type. It always has been in smaller metagames, and it can especially be obnoxious in an OM setting. So are Water types, especially against most generic phys checks. Paldea Tauros Aqua and Quaquaval obliterate unprepared defensive cores. I don't ever say we should ban them, because with a format that's waiting on DLC/more mons to be released, it's as simple as running Intim Corv, or having offensive Electric coverage (which with Hadron, is especially easy). It doesn't help that Opulse is gone, but people manage. It's almost like a type that is especially hard to deal with outside of specific abilities, you can simply play more offensively into it. Ghosts are all offense, and there are only two of them. Run Gren or Meows or Sucker ffs. Kingambit has a slot for Sucker, btw.
And so what if people are running Purifying Salt? The whole point of AAA is the flexibility to patch weaknesses/abuse strengths. I ran Bulletproof Kingambit here and there. I just settled on Regenvest Chomp because it was more of a blanket. Regardless - did everyone forget how we dealt with Houndstone & Ghold? Sucker Punch, or banded Knock.
And Iron Moth gets obliterated by Clod, without Solarbeam it dies to a stray eq from Garg, Greninja can mud shot it... I've also never seen non Deso in a serious match. In fact, I haven't seen a lot of these apparently problematic SpA threats in high ladder. The only mon in the above list that makes sense to be there is Gren, bc it smacks ghosts and has STAB water which goes nearly unresisted.
I think a lot of these "problem" mons come from poor teambuilding and poor play. People either assume if a mon doesn't get OHKO its broken or can't be taken care of, or alternatively a mon isn't a threat if it can't OHKO. Hazards and chip damage are very very real and should be included in realistic game state assessments, not just random calcs. Why aren't we focusing on building better teams instead of calling to ban everything that sets up on us? You can't build a perfect team. Some mons will have better angles and it's up to you, the pilot, to play around such and look for a win condition. You can beat a strong offense with a stronger offense, and the nature of AAA gives you plenty of angles, so why are we dissuading running niche abilities? Is it actually the end of the world if you have a team that's pretty weak to ghosts and you run Psalt over Prankster on Clod? I don't see how even half of these mons are meta warping when a Dark type with more than 350 speed takes care of them.
I didn't think I'd respond to this topic again but damn it seems that some people are insistent on posting bad takes. Whatever, it just alleviates my boredom.
Maybe instead of banning anything that requires a little planning or problem solving beyond "try and beat every special attacker with one teambuilding slot" mentality?
No one (well at least not me, idk about anyone else but I would assume they're not either) is saying we should be able to beat all special attackers by running a blanket special check like, say, VoR Blissey. Hell, no one is saying we should be able to beat all special attackers with 2, 3, or more slots. I didn't think it needed to be said because I thought that we all knew that teambuilding is about making the most with the little you have. What I do have an issue with is having a generic base 110+ Speed mon killing my special wall because it's running a minimal opprotunity cost coverage move AND has the power to break through anything that's not a dedicated check (or even some things that are). Either or is fine; this is why no one is calling for a ban on, say, Hydreigon, Gardevoir, or Chi-Yu, since they can only have one or the other and not both at the same time. Pokemon like Iron Moth, Zoro-H, and Gengar (which I'm still not completely sold on banning) do not have this issue. They have the raw stats and coverage options to beat pretty much anything that gets thrown at their way barring extremely niche options like RegenVest Goodra.
Meowscarada one taps ghosts with Knock Off and naturally outspeeds.
Iron Treads with enough speed investments can outspeed after one Spin. (Click Knock/Quake for free)
Qua with 112 EVs after one spin/aqua step can one shot Gengar.
Clods naturally beats Iron Moth - and if its not DesoBoots like Gia said it loses to hazards really hard.
What happened to fast Moon with regen? What happened to Sucker Punch?
Again, no one is saying that offensive counterplay to special attackers doesn't exist. The discussion is primarily focused around the lack of defensive counterplay. And yeah good luck running Meow/getting to +1 with Treads or Qua when Corvid and Scream Tail are tier staples. And where is this "Clod beats Iron Moth" shit coming from? SFLO Flamethrower 2HKOs after minimal chip, and if you wanna run Psychic it does that without any chip (btw you have to be max/max for this, anything else just dies). As for fast Moon, I agree that it's underrated but it dies to Gengar Gleam after Rocks, gets Knocked by Zoro-H and dies to Focus Blast the next time it comes in, and gets paraed by non-SFLO Iron Moth and then dies to Gleam next time it comes in. It can come in and force them out once, maybe twice, which is enough for some teams but not enough for a majority of them.
I think a lot of these "problem" mons come from poor teambuilding and poor play. People either assume if a mon doesn't get OHKO its broken or can't be taken care of, or alternatively a mon isn't a threat if it can't OHKO. Hazards and chip damage are very very real and should be included in realistic game state assessments, not just random calcs. Why aren't we focusing on building better teams instead of calling to ban everything that sets up on us? You can't build a perfect team. Some mons will have better angles and it's up to you, the pilot, to play around such and look for a win condition. You can beat a strong offense with a stronger offense, and the nature of AAA gives you plenty of angles, so why are we dissuading running niche abilities? Is it actually the end of the world if you have a team that's pretty weak to ghosts and you run Psalt over Prankster on Clod? I don't see how even half of these mons are meta warping when a Dark type with more than 350 speed takes care of them.
This one pisses me off personally because do you think I or others haven't tried this already? I build 2-3 teams a week at this point and although not all of them see the light of day, I've built enough that I know what to prep for on a given team. In building these teams I have found it difficult to account for 3 specific threats: Zoro-H, Iron Moth, and Lucario, since each of them can bullshit their way through their switch-ins with little opprotunity cost, which I and others have gone over in this thread. It's easy enough to say "well just out offense them" but not only is that not possible for certain playstyles, but the offensive counterplay you continue to list is, quite frankly, pretty poor in this meta. There is a higher opprotunity cost to running something like Meow or Greninja because consistent defensive counterplay to these mons is much more common, and in some cases actually exists, compared to mons like Zoro-H. Of course, we could all just accept this and run balls-to-the-wall offense in an attempt to limit their turns, but does that actually solve the problem? Doing that would mean they're just warping the meta to only be able to out-offense them, and a meta where hyper offense is the best strat is often not well-liked (see: Gen 9 NatDex, Gen 5 OU).
My point is, there's only so much a player can do to limit threats. I think there's a clear line between balanced and unbalanced when it comes to special breakers, and personally, I believe that at least three of them (Iron Moth, Zoro-H, and Lucario) have crossed that line into becoming unmanagable. Maybe we don't need to commit to massive changes like unbanning Ice Scales or banning 3 different abilities, but something surely has to be done.
I've ran Meows in every single successful ladder team I've ran and gotten as high as top 10 with it. Banded SoR brutalizes teams and has the coverage for Corv and other common phys def checks. It's very, very easy to get +1, you're spinning on a non-ghost 9/10 times unless people are using Gengar/Zoroark as spinblockers now? Quaquaval sets up on Corv all day, or chunks it with an MGLO Wave Crash?
I'm glad you agree Fast Moon is underrated, I've recommended it plenty. "It dies to Gengar gleam after rocks", "SFLO Moth 2hkoes clod with Thrower", I'm sorry I thought Gengar was running Hadron NP Focus Blast? And again, who is actually running SFLO Moth at a high level when Deso is way more consistent?
This is still my #1 issue with this argument is that these super niche sets get brought up or we just assume somehow that Gengar has Nasty Plot AND 6 coverage moves apparently. Which is it?
Also, how is fast moon coming into a raw Dazzling Gleam? Ignoring that the opposing Gengar has to not only be running Gleam but actually click it, is a double switch out of question? Is your fast moon not >350 spe? Are we also going to gloss over Sucker Punch on Kingambit?
The only mon I agree is somewhat problematic is Iron Moth, and it has the usage stats and tournament results to show for it (specifically, Desoland boots bc it fits on balance way more than balls2wall breaker like SFLO). Greninja should also get more play. Lucario has mixed MGLO, sure, but it is also murdered by funny enough, Fast Moon with EQ, or any aforementioned mons with a +1 from Spin or just some priority. I've played Mega Launcher Lucario and cheesed balance teams on ladder, sure, but again it all ignores that you can't have a perfect matchup or account for every coverage option. Fast Dark types don't care if Gengar has gleam bc you click Knock/Crunch/whatever and it dies. "What about Corviknight" run Tpunch on Meows? Or break it from other mons? There are two/three step solutions to these problems, which is another thing I'm also tired of reading.
but not only is that not possible for certain playstyles, but the offensive counterplay you continue to list is, quite frankly, pretty poor in this meta. There is a higher opprotunity cost to running something like Meow or Greninja because consistent defensive counterplay to these mons is much more common, and in some cases actually exists, compared to mons like Zoro-H.
First off, I don't believe in "playstyles" there's only the correct play, the wrong play, or in more nebulous cases, a midground/safe play. Unless you mean team archetypes, then sure you can't just splash Meows/Moon like you could Tusk in the past. I would also love to see the defensive counterplay to SFLO Greninja, or even generic PSea Greninja. Meows doesn't have "opportunity cost", it's only naturally outsped by Chien Pao, and it can Knock a helmet before just U-turning on everything. Moon does the same thing, just without Knock and has Dragon-typing.
Yeah, I think we need to let metagames settle and for things to develop before we slap another ban. Dnite was just banned, and obviously that didn't help this apparent ghost problem considering it could Aerilate Espeed on em.
0 Atk Roaring Moon one shots Iron Moth, Lucario, Gengar and Z-H with Earthquake or Crunch. You can run Scarf + Regen with any EV spread you want and it outspeeds and/or tanks a good chunk of their moves. Pair it with another pivot, and sure maybe you might have to be in a sac war but slow turns on enemy pivots will get you the tempo you need.
Kingambit just clicks sucker. You're never in a bad spot for clicking Banded SoR knock on Meows.
Of course, we could all just accept this and run balls-to-the-wall offense in an attempt to limit their turns, but does that actually solve the problem? Doing that would mean they're just warping the meta to only be able to out-offense them
You don't need balls2wall. Just one dark type. Running Roaring Moon bc its good into these "unmanageable threats" isn't meta-warping it's just how metagame works.
Let’s focus on discussing the metagame and not get into back-and-forths nitpicking what other posters said. There’s a lot of differing opinions and experiences, and that’s great, but let’s keep it constructive and meta-focused.
It was a good run, but I’m finally out of the AAA money tour. Big relief honestly, would’ve loved to make it farther, but it was stressing me. I’m happy with how I placed (considering it was my first tour) and I can finally finally FINALLY post teams to the forums w/o fear of being counter-teamed (I also no longer feel the need to use an alt for everything).
Speaking of posting teams to the forums, I’ve got two:
Seasoning (Sandy Shocks) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Earth Power
- Spikes
Hot Sauce (Slither Wing) @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- First Impression
- Heavy Slam
>~< (Tinkaton) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Gigaton Hammer
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
Regret (Toxapex) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Earth Eater
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Recover
- Chilling Water
- Baneful Bunker
A balance team based around having defensive answers to most of the common offensive mons. Regenvest Goodra is a blanket check for most special attackers, and Tinkaton handles most of the rest. Corv is your standard level 99 slowturn set, and Pex is EV’d to match well into mixed Lucario, while also being, well, Toxapex. The offensive core of Hadron Shocks + Tinted Swing works well into non-immunity defensive cores with the ability to spam Volt Switch and U-Turn on a good chunk of the defensive meta. Since Tinted Swing doesn’t really need coverage, I threw on Heavy Slam, mainly so it can snipe Stail.
This team does not defensively check everything tho; Dreigon, for instance, is super difficult to manage. Hzoro can threaten Goodra with mixed sets, and Calm Mind + Sub/Prot Pixelate STail is the nemesis of this team. And, of course, there’s Glaceon. Most of these mons do have offensive counterplay in Swing, with the exception being STail. Running Cloak on Corv for Nacl is also quite akward, considering that corv likes coming in on Pokemon that spam knock. Putting Cloak on Pex instead is an option.
Now, speaking of Glaceon:
TummyRumble (Garchomp) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Stone Edge
- Poison Jab
PowerOutlet (Magnezone) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steel Beam
- Volt Switch
- Body Press
- Thunderbolt
Considering my first post on this forum was defending Glaceon, I might as well put my money where my mouth is. This is the team that got me to number 5 on ladder on my alt (tied for 7 as of writing this; the proof is below). The star of the show, Glaceon, is able to take advantage of slower, defensive mons, as most special walls in the tier are, in fact, weak to ice (and physical walls outright die; physdef corv is a coinflip from full). It’s very good and breaking down balance teams early on, leaving the remnants behind for its allies to clean up. Even against offensive teams, Glace can usually pick up at least one KO due to its usable bulk (it doesn’t need speed beyond the 28 EVs to outspeed 8-speed-EV Corv, so the rest can go into HP). Ice Beam, Freeze Dry, Shadow Ball, and yes, Mud Shot, lets Glaceon hit pretty much everything, making it very difficult to switch into.
The general game plan with Glaceon is to get it in on slow defensive mons such as Corv, Ting-Lu, and the standard defensive Chomp (Glace does get outsped but it still forces a switch if Chomp can’t KO) and hard-read your opponent. Thus, it fits well on offense teams with switch-spam such as this one. Any time the opponent tries to answer defensively, they open themselves up to a nuclear Ice Beam from Glace. Wattrel is on the team because SShocks can be voltblocked by VA birds or EE grounds, making it a complete liability in those matchups. Zone takes advantage of mono-salt-cure Nacl and can even take a body press if it needs to; it was chosen over Lucario because Lucario doesn’t have a pivot option. Swing has a strong priority and can always U-Turn safely due to its ability; it’s also a Swing and can tear down/force out Treads & Nacl if given the opportunity. Finally, I have the more or less standard level 99 Corv & Regenvest Chomp sets.
Now, am I saying Glaceon is without flaws? No. As stated in a post by Siamato, it’s quite the defensive liability. It’s speed tier is god awful as well, and it can’t do the whole “live a hit and kill back” thing if rocks are up. I would not recommend Glaceon on 95% of teams, and I believe the only team archetype that it performs well on is Bulky Offense. It is also a prediction-heavy mon in most matchups, meaning that you can’t just throw off Ice Beams and kill things every time Glace comes in. That being said, I do think it’s a usable Pokemon and an incredible offensive threat, so long as you use it well.
Are the ghosts really that balanced though?
Let's look through their traditional checks. First up, we have the most obvious check, RegenVest Roaring Moon. That is the most natural check, until it does reveal focus miss. Yes, focus miss landing twice in a row is very rare, but it does get access to Nasty Plot which just makes the 49% chance of landing both a 70% chance instead so the Gengar user has better odds of winning unless you run speed EVs, which is still an ok idea but makes it less bulky. Up next we have Bulletproof, seen on DFM's suspect reqs team on Iron Treads specifically to beat the Ghosts, which is a good pick, but some strange players may run Flamethrower Zoroark-H, which is well Flamethrower Zoroark-H. Lastly, we have an extreme check, PSalt Clodsire. This is where I find issues with the Ghosts. PSalt only gives an immunity to burns and corrosion toxic, and a ghost resist. If PSalt needs to rise in usage to check 2 Ghosts, I'd find it pretty unhealthy for the meta at this point and I would support tiering action on both of them.
This whole argument on freeing Scales can basically be summed up in one sentence:
Do the benefits of freeing Scales (having it to wall stuff) outweigh the costs of freeing it (Scales setup)?
How you answer this question basically determines your stance on the matter. Ultimately i'm undecided but there's a few nuances to the question that are worth discussing.
First and foremost is "what's actually setting up?", and compared to FurScales meta, the stuff in the tier is generally more wallable without using Scales on a defensive mon (prospects aren't great, given we're having this discussion in the first place, but "it'll do" walls are reasonably common), so you can generally justify Scales setup more than back then. This is our list of candidates:
Note that "recovery" also includes moves you aren't using (like Life Dew), so the real list is basically Scream Tail, Slither Wing, Gogoat, Decidueye, Quaquaval, Dudunsparce, Braviary, Flamigo, Hawlucha, Corviknight, and Dunsparce. Whether these are going to be problematic with Ice Scales is up to you to decide, as many of these are "candidates" only and will never actually use Scales (eg. Talonflame who is never giving up MGuard) and many are also pretty slow.
Next is "Is Scales actually going to work", in the sense of it being sufficient to stop the special attackers at hand. If you're using extreme walls, like Clodsire and Blissey, then the obvious answer is yes. If you're using less extreme ones, like Roaring Moon, then it's worth discussing if Ice Scales will even let them beat the things they're trying to wall - chief among these are Iron Moth and the Ghosts (which I think are the most problematic options at the minute) which seemingly can just... not be walled? +2 Gengar just flat OHKOes after 1 hazard, Iron Moth clicks the pink button, and Zoro-H can choose whether to BSlam or Plot + FBlast. This is just one example but the general point is that Ice Scales' impact can't be assumed to always be "enough", because if you aren't using an extreme wall then it clearly isn't.
The last point I want to bring up is mixed breakers - mainly Lucario, but also Zoro-H. If these are being complained about now then chances are freeing Ice Scales is unlikely to do a whole lot, as by their vary nature, they prey on walls that focus entirely on one side. Unless there's some miracle cure i'm not seeing then these are both likely to keep bullying through Scales mons the same way they do through special walls now - as far as I can tell, these things' best check is offensive pressure, which Scales probably isn't helping a great deal with.
I can't find a pokemon with a set that walls all gengar or zoroark-hisui sets
Purifying salt clodsire can't wall gengar/Zoroark-hisui at +2 if it has psychic
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 478-564 (103.2 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
neither can garchomp if it has icy wind
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Garchomp: 426-504 (101.4 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Garchomp: 442-520 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and bulletproof iron treads loses to zoroark-hisui with flamethrower
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zoroark-Hisui Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 429-507 (133.6 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
bullet proof Garganacl is the closest i can find since it can tank everything the ghosts can do other then a grass knot from zoroark-hisui and grass knot on zoroark-hisui is very rare.
looking at some pokemon matchups with sheer force Gengar if ice scales is unbanned.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Roaring Moon: 316-372 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
roaring moon still can't wall gengar even with scales and can't scare it out unless on full hp or gengar hasn't got a nasty plot set up.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Garganacl: 341-402 (84.4 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
garganacl still can't
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Blissey: 257-304 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
blissey now can sort of but its blissey.
maxspd moth
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Iron Moth: 123-146 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Iron Moth: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
max speed max attack moth
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ice Scales Iron Moth: 153-181 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ice Scales Iron Moth: 305-360 (101.3 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
2HKO
and without any investment psychic from iron moth doesn't OHKO
0 SpA Iron Moth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so ice scales iron moth can deal with psychic gengar with 252 spd or hp investment and a bit of spa investment if iron moth is not chipped to hard.
clodsire can OHKO with earthquake and can take 4 psychics or 1 +2 psychic so it can now wall it.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Clodsire: 120-142 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 2.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Gengar Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Clodsire: 239-282 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So iron moth and blissy can now deal with sheer force gengar with ice scales BUT not if gengar has mold breaker.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mold Breaker Gengar Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Iron Moth: 380-447 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mold Breaker Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 398-468 (55.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Blissey Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 130-154 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
with mold breaker gengar can deal with iron moth and blissy at +2.
clodsire on the other hand needs to be chipped first
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mold Breaker Gengar Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 367-434 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mold Breaker Gengar Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 185-218 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If i have gotten anything wrong or make any mistakes please correct/notify me.
Are the ghosts really that balanced though?
Let's look through their traditional checks. First up, we have the most obvious check, RegenVest Roaring Moon. That is the most natural check, until it does reveal focus miss. Yes, focus miss landing twice in a row is very rare, but it does get access to Nasty Plot which just makes the 49% chance of landing both a 70% chance instead so the Gengar user has better odds of winning unless you run speed EVs, which is still an ok idea but makes it less bulky. Up next we have Bulletproof, seen on DFM's suspect reqs team on Iron Treads specifically to beat the Ghosts, which is a good pick, but some strange players may run Flamethrower Zoroark-H, which is well Flamethrower Zoroark-H. Lastly, we have an extreme check, PSalt Clodsire. This is where I find issues with the Ghosts. PSalt only gives an immunity to burns and corrosion toxic, and a ghost resist. If PSalt needs to rise in usage to check 2 Ghosts, I'd find it pretty unhealthy for the meta at this point and I would support tiering action on both of them.
Going to jump off this to shill for MGLO Zoro-H which is actually a pretty cool set* (with conditions).
Zoroark-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
So what's so good about this set? The main appeal of this set is to well, frankly, be annoying as fuck. Take RegenVest Garchomp which has risen a lot in popularity due to its ability to check many things, including the Ghosts with its neutral bulk and resists (although Garchomp actually loses to a healthy Zoro-H if its coming in on it....) MGLO can essentially just bully it over time, Wisp it so it doesn't even 2HKO and extra chip, Knock it to make it squisher and then you have a very easy target which gets 2HKO'd by Hex. This applies to other neutral RegenVest mons like Tinkaton, Bulletproof mons get either tossed around by Hex or ultra irritated by Wisp and Knock (like Kingambit) and other walls like RegenVest Roaring Moon, Blissey, and Florges all hate the burn and losing their item and get very easily worn down over time by U-turn, especially if you successfully pair it with hazards. In the long-term, there are essentially no defensive checks to this thing outside of like Purifying Salt Clodsire.
Fat team I used with MGLO Zoro-H that worked alright on ladder and for the tournament (Pokepaste is dead so this is the next best thing). I'm aware Talonflame presents issues, but you can optimize that for yourself (a different WBB mon/Power Gem RegenVest Garchomp could work?). Since MGLO Zoro-H is going to take a while to break down its walls, it appreciates a team that can facilitate that and also spread status for Hex to go to work. It still appreciates pivot since its still the most fragile thing in the world and can probably be paired up with other breakers on either side of the spectrum to either overload respective special walls or better pressure them.
On another note, fast RegenVest Roaring Moon has become the standard set for me given not only Ghosts and also AOA Iron Moth/Lucario suck to deal with otherwise (they still suck, but I have a way to cope against them kinda) although Lucario ban is odd to me and I'd like to see more of a solid case for Iron Moth set out.
Addressing the above post, Purifying Salt Clodsire is still fine enough as a check to the Ghosts (literally no one runs Psychic) although I would like to say, just even looking at the SFLO sets, the 4th slot is really customizable to whatever the hell you want. FBlast, SBall and NP is enough to devastate 90% of what aren't dedicated checks and so you can run Icy Wind, Toxic, Wisp, U-turn, Knock, Body Slam or even really Psychic at not that much of a consequence (although BSlam is quite cool). Hell this set is even another option to bypass conventional defensive checks, although you do lose some of your normal effectiveness with SFLO. Of course, you can't run all of these, or sacrifice some initial effectiveness in doing so, but it does spell quite the pain to account for given they're not even that slow and the stock standard 3 moves on SFLO are already still a massive threat. Yes, you can cope offensively, perhaps there should be some leniency given to how much you're meant to actually play around offensive threats but like, when is it too much that it's far too unreasonable for even defensive teams to handle? Because the Ghosts certainly seem like a good candidate if ever.
https://pokepast.es/0ddd173e82408cd6
What are possible ways i can improve this team? I've edited the team over and over and over again to accomodate certain things but the four main mons that have always been vital were chomp, blissey, corv, and stail and I've been "decorating the outside of the cookie" but i keep putting too much against one side than on the other but then end up not putting enough in the middle. Currently quaquaval is meant for spinning, being a kingambit slither, mglo lucario check (kinda), and chien-pao but if i change it to toxapex to make the mu more favorable on the mglo lucario side then i lose spinning, running physically defensive chomp feels redundant, and my team becomes significantly much less proactive
With the 6th slot I've tried experimenting with mons that can reliably pressure my opponent with status stuff like corrosion and toxic debris with toxic debris being significantly more tougher for my usual foes to deal with than corrosion. I tried putting desoland moth on the team as a actual attacking presence and a tspike mon but it had such a hard time actually coming in that it wasn't worth using compared to something like palossand or hippowdon who could get rocks up as well and weren't insanely hard to actually bring in and punished any physical attack
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn
- Morning Sun
First is to highlight the new and improved protean hisu-zor (new mild flavor!) rash works too and is possibly better but i couldnt think of a good joke for it
the new mild flavor lets it actually kill things better, ohkoing non scarf sandy shocks guarenteed, being able to kill a chipped iron moth with psychic (or full with 75% chance), speaking of upon testing I believe psychic is the optimal move for that slot for its ability to deal with moth, pex, and slither wing, where as sludge bomb's uses were either not as effective as id like (scream tail/florges) or for less common threats that arent too hard to kill (gardevoir)
this is essentially both a wall-breaker and anti wall-breaker, both being able to make quick work of walls like donzo, garg, and now pex, and being able to outspeed and ohko non scarf variants of most of the threatening fast special attackers (kills gengar and opposing hizo with koff, kills iron moth with psychic, kills sandy and greninja with g-knot)
secondly I'd like to talk about WBB and fluffy and the dynamic between them
I'm just gonna start of by saying i think both of these abilities are arguably bannable for their own reasons and theres also the fact that they wombo combo together to create a truly monstrous core
Fluffy, when used on a mon already weak to fire so its not too bothered by being even more weak to it (corv) creates a powerful physical wall/tank that pretty much only has to worry about things it already loses to on other sets (chien pao already beats non-intim, cidnerace and flare blitz slither already beat non wbb corv), Fluffy's uses outside this dynamic warrant a separate post that I may make if compelled to do so
Wbb, when used on a bulky offensive mon alongside fluffy, creates a threat to so much as click a fire move against the fluffy mon, lest you have something to deal with a surprise fire immune fur coat, Kingambit is the most obvious exploiter now with joe gone but nothing really stops the likes of bulk up corv or sd tinkaton from abusing the surprise fut coat either
I've been gone for 3 DAYS and then the forum explodes...
Anyways blah blah blah ice scales : insert opinion:
Anyways I've been itching to murder at least someone with a hail team, but snow sucks so bad oml. I mean we don't have to use abomasnow, that's nice... but with the incoming defense buff yeahhhh no still has to be an ice type. Bax would be a Canadian (... I'ma leave that there), but they were banneddddd. With the only weather rn being oh... ALL OF THEM consider snow is very weak in AAA with no sand force equivalent and the lack of immediate prowess. We have uhh... Avalugg as a weather setter even though it much better as literally anything else. Snow just doesn't have a reliable setter all other weather which is wayyy stronger than it are in play.
I can't just rant about snow and then leave...
So here's a here's a regenvest Wo-Chien
Wo-Chien @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Ruination
- Knock Off
- Snarl
The worst gimmick you will ever see
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Stored Power
(Yet another set I don't have a lot of experience with but did test around 1300ish)
First of all just use unaware lol the only benefit this has is copying boosts to sweep and its not that reliable.
I'll explain how it works:
First cripple potential unaware users, steel and dark types, and any wall that stuffs this thing with trick scarf, status, or anything else you can think of. Haze absolutely ruins this so be on the watch for toxapex. Now you may be wondering what this is even effective against. It can be used against ho mons like cloyster to grab their boosts and stored power straight at them, it can also grab speed boosts off of rapid spin and aqua step from defensive quaquaval. Substitute can be used to setup against garganacl and avoid toxics aimed towards it. Now defensive uses it sometimes acts like unaware (although weaker to crits) so it still annoys stuff like dondozo and defensive quaquaval. Anyways don't use this.
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