SPOILERS! All Returning DLC Pokemon in SV DLC Expansion Pass <Unconfirmed>

[Hematite]

I'm fairly sure that the Home mention after the 230 in the press release is just a way to say, you can bring them from Home or trades as well, because it means you won't need to buy the DLC to get them.

Uhh... yeah no, that's definitely not what I'm getting from this:

In Part 1: The Teal Mask and Part 2: The Indigo Disk, players will be able to encounter over 230 familiar Pokémon that have been found living in other regions but had not appeared in Pokémon Scarlet and Pokémon Violet. This includes Pokémon that players will be able to bring to their games via Pokémon HOME or those received in trades.​

That's just not the same thing as "All of these Pokémon can also be brought to the games via Pokémon HOME or received in trades." Like, that's doubtless also a true statement, but it's not what this sentence is about - it says there are going to be 230 total and then clarifies that that includes Pokémon that are received in this way.
It would probably be fairest to take this as "some Pokémon that you would already be able to obtain only through HOME and trades will now be possible to encounter in-game starting in the DLC," considering SwSh did more or less the same - a lot of things that started out HOME-only like the Kanto starters and the Swords of Justice ended up with some special treatment in the DLC - but no matter how you look at it, it's clearly saying "230 including specific Pokémon you can get from HOME and trades," not talking about the fact that you can also transfer any of these.

 

[R_N]

Uhh... yeah no, that's definitely not what I'm getting from this:

In Part 1: The Teal Mask and Part 2: The Indigo Disk, players will be able to encounter over 230 familiar Pokémon that have been found living in other regions but had not appeared in Pokémon Scarlet and Pokémon Violet. This includes Pokémon that players will be able to bring to their games via Pokémon HOME or those received in trades.​

That's just not the same thing as "All of these Pokémon can also be brought to the games via Pokémon HOME or received in trades." Like, that's doubtless also a true statement, but it's not what this sentence is about - it says there are going to be 230 total and then clarifies that that includes Pokémon that are received in this way.
It would probably be fairest to take this as "some Pokémon that you would already be able to obtain only through HOME and trades will now be possible to encounter in-game starting in the DLC," considering SwSh did more or less the same - a lot of things that started out HOME-only like the Kanto starters and the Swords of Justice ended up with some special treatment in the DLC - but no matter how you look at it, it's clearly saying "230 including specific Pokémon you can get from HOME and trades," not talking about the fact that you can also transfer any of these.

it also states straight up "over 230 familiar pokemon but HAD NOT APPEARED in Pokemon Scarlet & Violet"

and that number's about to decrease tremendously over the next several months and is already off base as it stands with this list.

 

[Perriechu]

I'm fairly sure that the Home mention after the 230 in the press release is just a way to say, you can bring them from Home or trades as well, because it means you won't need to buy the DLC to get them.

Yeah that was the consensus I got as well - it wouldn't bode well for them to advertise that with the DLC we are going to have over 230 existing Pokémon added back into the game but then suddenly u-turn(!) and then add that this "230+" also contains the 40(?) Pokémon that are transfer only from HOME, because as we can see they have been drip feeding various transfer-only Pokémon over the last couple of months, and by the time the DLC drops, it'll be more - which would mean the DLC wouldn't actually be re-introducing us to 230+, it would be a lot less.

My takeaway from it is that it's the Base 400 from SV + the transfer-only HOME Pokémon + the 230~ "new" Pokémon + whatever actual new Pokémon we get will be what SV has total by the end.

 

[Worldie]

Honestly until more news prove or disprove it, I'm just assuming it's going to be same as SwSh dlc, aka we'll be getting 230-ish new mons *excluding the ones already available in SV data* (which does account for hisuians too) which will include also every legendary / restricted as well as Ultrabeasts, but not mythicals.

Also at this point I'd not be surprised if the DLCs throw us another regional form or two. I'd love another round of "regional legendaries" tbfh.

 

[Valoo]

Also at this point I'd not be surprised if the DLCs throw us another regional form or two. I'd love another round of "regional legendaries" tbfh.

I was thinking about new regional legends but I can’t think of many that would fit. Doubt they’d do box legends, Regis/beasts/birds/deers/kami already got something new, Alola guardians are probably still too new. Maybe the latis? Or I guess like… heatran.

 

[R_N]

I suppose Walking Wake and Iron Leaves kinda work like dlc regionals.

e: You know, it's going to be weird when Home's update finally comes out and those two are the only Pokemon without any dex entries.

 

[Worldie]

I suppose Walking Wake and Iron Leaves kinda work like dlc regionals.

e: You know, it's going to be weird when Home's update finally comes out and those two are the only Pokemon without any dex entries.

To be fair there's a non 0 chance home update will also have a miniupdate on SV as well at same time, so if they feel that is a issue they can just add the entry at that point.

I was thinking about new regional legends but I can’t think of many that would fit. Doubt they’d do box legends, Regis/beasts/birds/deers/kami already got something new, Alola guardians are probably still too new. Maybe the latis? Or I guess like… heatran.

The pixies would notably be eligible for regional forms. I wouldnt exactly bet on it, but it is a possibility

 

[R_N]

To be fair there's a non 0 chance home update will also have a miniupdate on SV as well at same time, so if they feel that is a issue they can just add the entry at that point.

it's a non-0 chance but predicated on them being added to the Paldea dex, which I doubt.

I think they'll just be without a dex entry until they're added ""for real"" with the DLCs (probably wave 2).






Comedy option is they go ahead and put the dex entries for the pair in Home and then oopsie woopsie they also included all the dex entries for everyone else in the DLC. Including the new Pokemon and maybe forms

e: The non-comedy option is they just put in their dex entries from the DLC in Home and they don't accidentally mess anything else up.

 

[Coronis]

I suppose Walking Wake and Iron Leaves kinda work like dlc regionals.

e: You know, it's going to be weird when Home's update finally comes out and those two are the only Pokemon without any dex entries.

Yeah it does feel like they would rather do Paradoxes for Legendaries this gen.

The pixies would notably be eligible for regional forms. I wouldnt exactly bet on it, but it is a possibility

Not a regional form, but a future Azelf paradox could definitely have a cool streamlined design with its 3 points. Uxie would work well as a past paradox with eyes open and a suitable Signature move.

 

[Worldie]

Yeah it does feel like they would rather do Paradoxes for Legendaries this gen.

Not a regional form, but a future Azelf paradox could definitely have a cool streamlined design with its 3 points. Uxie would work well as a past paradox with eyes open and a suitable Signature move.

Honestly, I also wouldn't mind more "legendary paradoxes" like WW / IL. By all means they're alternative forms of an already existing pokemon, just in this case with an actual different pokedex ID.

 

[pika pal]

Honestly, I also wouldn't mind more "legendary paradoxes" like WW / IL. By all means they're alternative forms of an already existing pokemon, just in this case with an actual different pokedex ID.

Let me use both together in case both are good, instead of the disparity between teambuilding with something like Galarian Zapdos vs normal Zapdos

 

[bdt2002]

I’ve taken a look at the list of returning Pokémon, and while I’m still on the fence about actually buying the DLC (I could put that money towards other things), there’s a few things you guys have probably noticed that I wanted to talk about anyway.

-The lack of Snivy and Tepig on this list isn’t the “problem” so much as the fact that they’re now the only Starter Pokémon to not be featured in any Nintendo Switch Pokémon game.

-Thank Arceus they aren’t bringing Kingdra back. I’d imagine they might not have seen the point in a world where Walking Wake and Palkia will co-exist, but the reason I mention Kingdra in particular is because of just how badly the transition to Gen 6 screwed this thing over with direct and indirect nerfs. Could you imagine a Kingdra in the lower tiers that would be able to Terastalize? Because I can, and it’s freaking terrifying.

-230 plus Pokémon is actually a little bit bigger than Sword & Shield’s DLC bringoing back somewhere in the 210s range, if I’m not mistaken. It’s admittedly not that big an improvement, but that’s still several more returning fans who would be able to see their favorite Pokémon in an open-world environment for the first time, assuming said Pokémon wasn’t already in Legends.

-With the removal of Dynamax compared to Generation 8 and bans likely coming to Pokémon like the ruined Legendaries in future series, this DLC could potentially bring us some of the best, most balanced VGC metagame content we’ve ever seen, at least until the restricted legendaries join the fray. For the first time since, like, 2017, I’m excited to see where this could go for major tournaments and for online multiplayer battles.

 

[pika pal]

-With the removal of Dynamax compared to Generation 8 and bans likely coming to Pokémon like the ruined Legendaries in future series, this DLC could potentially bring us some of the best, most balanced VGC metagame content we’ve ever seen, at least until the restricted legendaries join the fray. For the first time since, like, 2017, I’m excited to see where this could go for major tournaments and for online multiplayer battles.

This part for me is pending when we see the Intimidate Tigers again.

 

[Worldie]

-With the removal of Dynamax compared to Generation 8 and bans likely coming to Pokémon like the ruined Legendaries in future series, this DLC could potentially bring us some of the best, most balanced VGC metagame content we’ve ever seen, at least until the restricted legendaries join the fray. For the first time since, like, 2017, I’m excited to see where this could go for major tournaments and for online multiplayer battles.

I wouldnt bottle it on "bans". That's not really what they are doing.

Rather, they have been progressively allowing more of the pokedex. First only regular mons, then paradoxes, now ruin legendaries, and most likely next season will also allow home transfers (say hello to Lando-T btw).

This part for me is pending when we see the Intimidate Tigers again.

To be fair I do wonder how impactful Incineroar will actually end up being in this VGC. Paradoxes being a thing as well as some notable anti-intimidate mons like Kingambit and (occasionally) Dragonite may or may not let it shine. With Thundurus-I also coming along (can use Tera for coverage now!) as well as Contrary Enamorous. Don't forget Incineroar also gets absolutely demolished by Iron Bundle which is and will likely remain super common.
I think Landorus-Therian if anything has more chance to be everywhere this time around as generic intimidater, though it also depends on if/when we see more tutor moves / TMs / even transfer moves or not.

 

[bdt2002]

This part for me is pending when we see the Intimidate Tigers again.

Hey, you never know if there might be some unannounced nerds to those guys we haven’t heard about yet. This may be wishful thinking, but I would like to point out that a surprising amount of Pokémon lost Knock Off this generation… I’m just saying it’s possible.

I wouldnt bottle it on "bans". That's not really what they are doing.

Rather, they have been progressively allowing more of the pokedex. First only regular mons, then paradoxes, now ruin legendaries, and most likely next season will also allow home transfers (say hello to Lando-T btw).

When I use the word “bans”, I’m admittedly using that very loosely. Over the course of Generation 8, the different Series of Sword & Shield VGC kept making it so some of the series didn’t allow some of the previous series’s best Pokémon in one way or another. There will be at least one Series prior to the release of The Teal Mask, I can be certain of this, and that’s likely where we’d see the meta shift towards the Pokémon HOME crowd.

 

[R_N]

Hey, you never know if there might be some unannounced nerds to those guys we haven’t heard about yet. This may be wishful thinking, but I would like to point out that a surprising amount of Pokémon lost Knock Off this generation… I’m just saying it’s possible.

All those Pokemon lost Knock off last generation as far as the big non-smogon formats are concerned.

 

[bdt2002]

All those Pokemon lost Knock off last generation as far as the big non-smogon formats are concerned.

Weavile lost it this generation, Toxapex did, I’m 90% sure Landorus lost it compared to SwSh and Legends but I could be wrong about this, and I believe there’s one or two more I may be missing. Like you said, though, those would be for non-Smogon formats. I do actually have some line of reason to believe Pokémon’s been paying more attention to the specific Smogon tiers for a while now, in spite of how they may or may not feel about something like Pokémon Showdown.

 

[R_N]

Weavile lost it this generation, Toxapex did, I’m 90% sure Landorus lost it compared to SwSh and Legends but I could be wrong about this, and I believe there’s one or two more I may be missing. Like you said, though, those would be for non-Smogon formats. I do actually have some line of reason to believe Pokémon’s been paying more attention to the specific Smogon tiers for a while now, in spite of how they may or may not feel about something like Pokémon Showdown.

Weavile, Toxapex and Landorus lost Knock Off last generation, as I said before, as far as non-smogon formats are concerned.
You could not teach Knock Off to any of them in SWSH which meant that thanks to the Mark system that Knock Off on those Pokemon was effectively not a thing in the modes that used the Marks. And the modes that didn't use the Marks, likely didn't have them nearly as common as they would be in USUM jsut since there was the extra steps to bring them forward.

 

[Worldie]

Weavile lost it this generation, Toxapex did, I’m 90% sure Landorus lost it compared to SwSh and Legends but I could be wrong about this, and I believe there’s one or two more I may be missing. Like you said, though, those would be for non-Smogon formats. I do actually have some line of reason to believe Pokémon’s been paying more attention to the specific Smogon tiers for a while now, in spite of how they may or may not feel about something like Pokémon Showdown.

Fwiw, Roost, Tailwing, Toxic and Knock Off have been notably missing as TMs / Tutors last generation already.
Tecnically, these were also gone as early as SM, and brought back with USUM.

The main reason you see a lot more talk about "losing moves" now is because of the (baseless) rumour Centro spread which said that there'll be moveset split for SV and you won't be able to carry over transfer moves like you could for previous games.
Emphasis on "Baseless", as there's no source for it, just a random assumption based on the fact that there's moveset split for gen 8 games, which has nothing to do with balance and more to do with how much of a hassle would have been to convert 3 games with completely different moves present / absent.

Normally, as soon as Bank/Home compatibility was available, Smogon istantly allowed transfer moves again, and assuming there's no random choice to have a moveset reset once entering SV, all these moves will be available again as soon as Home compatibility drops once again.

Note that transfers moves were never legal in VGC and BSS (and basically any cartridge official format) since gen 6.

 

[pika pal]

Fwiw, Roost, Tailwing, Toxic and Knock Off have been notably missing as TMs / Tutors last generation already.
Tecnically, these were also gone as early as SM, and brought back with USUM.

The main reason you see a lot more talk about "losing moves" now is because of the (baseless) rumour Centro spread which said that there'll be moveset split for SV and you won't be able to carry over transfer moves like you could for previous games.
Emphasis on "Baseless", as there's no source for it, just a random assumption based on the fact that there's moveset split for gen 8 games, which has nothing to do with balance and more to do with how much of a hassle would have been to convert 3 games with completely different moves present / absent.

Normally, as soon as Bank/Home compatibility was available, Smogon istantly allowed transfer moves again, and assuming there's no random choice to have a moveset reset once entering SV, all these moves will be available again as soon as Home compatibility drops once again.

Note that transfers moves were never legal in VGC and BSS (and basically any cartridge official format) since gen 6.

The most logical reason I could think of for potential moveset splits/wipes is if they want Home to allow backwards compatibility between shared species (i.e. can take a Goodra from Gen 9 back to Gen 8) without the Gen 2 "you need to delete XYZ moves because they didn't exist back then" thing (ignoring any questions of legality via transfer), since they seem determined to "isolate" each gen's learnset via the Mark System.

 

[R_N]

The most logical reason I could think of for potential moveset splits/wipes is if they want Home to allow backwards compatibility between shared species (i.e. can take a Goodra from Gen 9 back to Gen 8) without the Gen 2 "you need to delete XYZ moves because they didn't exist back then" thing (ignoring any questions of legality via transfer), since they seem determined to "isolate" each gen's learnset via the Mark System.

I would think it's more logical that, if they commit to this and its not just because Gen 8 was exceptionally messy in this regard, they just do it to cause it's significantly simpler to care about. Especially since a large chunk of moves would need to be deleted from movesets anyway depending on the Pokemon in question.

 

[Worldie]

I would think it's more logical that, if they commit to this and its not just because Gen 8 was exceptionally messy in this regard, they just do it to cause it's significantly simpler to care about. Especially since a large chunk of moves would need to be deleted from movesets anyway depending on the Pokemon in question.

The real question to this day would be why would they commit in needing Home to store additional data for every pokemon game the pokemon lands for a feature they don't seem interested in having (sending pokemon backwards).

 

[R_N]

The real question to this day would be why would they commit in needing Home to store additional data for every pokemon game the pokemon lands for a feature they don't seem interested in having (sending pokemon backwards).

Likely it was seen as the simpler solution for the time to account for the 3 gen 8 games just have a set of weird gears of move availability between them. They didnt want you bringing someone from SWSH to BDSP or LA and getting moves they otherwise couldn't while still being hypothetically legal + didn't want someone to bring up some moves delete tehm and then plop them in a different game with diferent restrcitions or wanting some xyz move. It seems that might have just been plans changing, since BDSP & LA are set to appropriately dummy out respective moves and allow you to delete theme, but it's what they decided to pivot to for- again i must assume- the simpler solution.

Besides imagine if the next set of games are Blinding White and Withering Black alongside Legends Kyurem and they do the same thing as last time where a bunch of random moves are and are not even in those respective games alongside fully refreshed movesets to match their (lack of) mechanics. Well hey cool, they have everything armed and ready to go for that.


But more than that, if they wanted to send Pokemon backwards & forwards, they would actually need more than just accounting for movesets. The Pokemon data itself gets updated, expanded & changed when "going up" even if the Pokemon itself didn't get anything new when you plopped it down.
Which I guess they could also have Home handle? But I doubt it.

 

[Worldie]

Yeh I am pretty confident as well that the system was just to deal with the mess that the 3 gen 8 games were.

I'm 100% sure that once Home update comes they'll just add a battle-ready NPC in SV to go with it like they did for SwSh (or was it in the DLC? I can't even remember) and then let the transfering work as usual, once you touch SV, it can't go back to SwSh (though, may still be able to go to LA / BDSP maybe).
...at least, I really hope that's the case. I'd really hate to accept that Centro with their baseless claim ended up being right regardless.

 

[R_N]

Yeh I am pretty confident as well that the system was just to deal with the mess that the 3 gen 8 games were.

I'm 100% sure that once Home update comes they'll just add a battle-ready NPC in SV to go with it like they did for SwSh (or was it in the DLC? I can't even remember) and then let the transfering work as usual, once you touch SV, it can't go back to SwSh (though, may still be able to go to LA / BDSP maybe).
...at least, I really hope that's the case. I'd really hate to accept that Centro with their baseless claim ended up being right regardless.

If it can't go to SWSH there's no reason for it to be able to go to LA/BDSP; it's all still using gen 8 Pokemon data.