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Gamer1234556

"Because... Scald is a shit Ferro answer!!!"
what about blissey or most calm mind users?they can easily take those attacks.
Not an ADV buff, but... (Oh an I don't feel like including both calcs because imo they are more or less the same pokemon)

Latios calcs vs Blissey:

+1 252+ SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 249-294 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Latios Dragon Claw vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 166-196 (25 - 29.6%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Latios calcs vs Snorlax

+1 252+ SpA Soul Dew Latios Dragon Claw vs. 144 HP / 136+ SpD Snorlax: 239-282 (48 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Latios Dragon Claw vs. 144 HP / 136+ SpD Snorlax: 160-189 (32.1 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

These are the two most bulky pokemon in the tier and the fact that they struggle to handle Latios with Soul Dew is insane. I suppose you can argue that Latios would be better to deal with without Soul Dew, but the fact I have to force Blissey and Snorlax on every team does not feel healthy for the metagame at all. Oh and also, Blissey can barely do much to Latios aside from statusing it, and since Latios knows Recover and Refresh, Blissey is forced into an uphill battle, and Snorlax really isn't all that better since it doesn't even have reliable recovery to stave off Latios.

As for Metagross and Skarmory, both are torn apart by Thunderbolt. Not at all reliable checks to Latios. The fact that you include Vaporeon on the list is laughable too. Vaporeon can barely survive CM boosted Dragon Claws, let alone Thunderbolt.
 
Not to turn this thread into a single argument but want to counter some of your points. I also want to preface that I'm not an expert player but I have played ADV for a long time, I also wouldn't even be opposed to a Lati@s test but I don't think it would be unbanned.

I should also mention I'm mainly going to be assuming Latias in my arguments, because I think Latios is even more bonkers and doesn't warrant discussion. I also want to note Latias is incredibly versatile and can often choose what it wants to beat with it's wide movepool, including some niche but potentially useful moves like reflect/charm and surf to beat tar, etc. It can go max defenses and refresh to beat wall counters like blissey too. However I think most will run enough speed to beat base 100s, enough spat to hit benchmarks with it's attacks, and the rest thrown into spdef. I'm also going to assume it's running lefties, sandstorm is up, and it has at least some moderate spikes support. Assuming the main sets are:

Dragon Claw | Tbolt | Calm Mind | Recover

and

Psychic / Dragon Claw | Recover | Roar | Random coverage or status move here

what about blissey or most calm mind users?they can easily take those attacks.
Blissey is certainly an option, although it's worth noting that the latis can easily 1v1 blissey if they opt for a max hp spread and refresh, but like I said, I don't know how common that would be. You're right, Blissey does beat most of the sets. Blissey beats a lot of things. Blissey is very passive and gives free switch ins to a huge portion of the tier. Good teams will always have ways to capitalize on Blissey, including just throwing dugtrio at it. Blissey also is not the type of mon that can be thrown on any team. Also, calm mind users won't have a calm mind up when they switch in? Do you mean they can switch in and win a cm war? Because the only OU CM users are raikou, suicune, and celebi, and I don't think any of those are beating Latias in a CM war.

it doesn't sound much scarier than a calm mind suicune.if anything it is less scary since calm mind does not give it physical protection.
Suicune might have great physical bulk, but it doesn't have recovery outside of resttalk, which is really bad this gen. It's vulnerable to all of TSS. And it doesn't have an EQ immunity or fighting resist. Latias can switch into CB EQs and BBs and turn that into momentum at no cost. It isn't chunked by swampert EQ switching in.

that's not necerily a game breaking thing,there are pokemon that can run speed boosting moves and outrun it and pokemon that can slow it down with paralysis.
Being outrun by pokemon that have used speed boosting moves is not a negative, because those pokemon have to switch in and use their speed boosting move, and while they do that, Latias can switch to a counter? Or are you saying it doesn't beat a pokemon that boosted on something else, and uh, yeah, it isn't meant to be a wall that stops all sweeps? Also, the only speed boosting moves in ADV are DDance and Agility. Agility is seen on Zapdos, who isn't beating Latias, and metagross (if agiligross still exists) who does admittedly beat Latias. DDance is seen on Mence and Gyara, who are never setting up on Latias and can't even threaten it at +1 ( +1 252+ Atk Salamence Hidden Power Flying vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 211-249 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ), and tar. So you do give setup to Tar and Meta, but a lot of pokemon do, and good counters exist to those pokemon. Both also need to scout before trying to set up. This isn't even mentioning that if the Latias user can get 3 layers of spikes up, it only takes on roar predict to neuter both these mons.

vaporeon can theoretically work too
I did the math and I found out that a vaporeon with 16HP,240 sp.atk and 252 sp.def with calm nature which holds nevermeltice can 2hitko both of them and survive 2 thunderbolts(my calculations were based on the fact that in ubers they only boost special attack and speed EVs,also I did not add sandstorm in my calculations.)
Damn, you just have to run the most ridiculous Vaporeon set ever to beat Latias, all good. First of all, you're running a no physical bulk vappy with no leftovers. This vaporeon is going to get dugged, or at the very least, you've made your team really weak to DDtar. Nevermeltice is a joke of an item, giving up lefties in ADV just for a 10% boost to your coverage move? Also, you need to have haze/roar here, or else even a bulkless latias can just set up in your face - 240 SpA Never-Melt Ice Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 81-96 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery. Thats what happens when Latias clicks CM as vappy comes in, then again as it ice beams. Without haze/roar, you're left fishing for crit/freeze. BTW just from 1 layer of spikes and two turns of sandstorm (one switching in, one while you ice beam on their 2nd CM) your vappy has lost 24% and dies to +2 tbolt. So you put on haze/roar - except now you're running surf, ice beam, and roar, which means you aren't running wishtect, and you now have a vaporeon with no recovery lmao.

Let's do a comparison. Latias shares a lot in common with Zapdos. Well rounded fast special attackers, with a spammable stab move, good defensive typing giving them a ground immune but not a sand/toxic immune, and their counters are all grounded and vulnerable to roar with spikes up. Zapdos has for a long time been considered a top 5 pokemon in ADV, and I've even seen people say it's top 3.
Now take Zapdos, add surf and ice beam, refresh, a very relevant 10 base speed, no rock weak, good support moves like screens and wish, calm mind, and RECOVER.

Again, I don't think Latias would be unbeatable, but I think it would be incredibly centralizing and can sometimes just win because it decided to run max bulk refresh into your stall team. But more than anything else, if you want a reason not to test/release latias: there isn't a need to. The ADV metagame is fantastic as is, and I see no reason to try and throw a wrench into it.

I am pretty sure that the metagame would adapt in order to deal with them.
If your idea of adapting is ever team running blissey or an atrocious vaporeon set, I'd hate to see what you think is too centralizing.
 

vapicuno

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oh okay,I sorta understand about mew
but what about latios and latias?
why not just ban the soul dew item?
Reposting from an earlier deleted thread:

The short answer is that the OU banlist was created since the beginning of ADV in the early 2000s and incrementally changed since then to maintain the balance of the metagame. Even if it turns out that having the latis around produces a balanced metagame, it would be a significant change. Making such significant changes requires extensive testing, council approval, and implicitly, the acceptance of the playerbase. ADV OU is good where it is now, so such a change is very unlikely to materialize.
 
Reposting from an earlier deleted thread:

The short answer is that the OU banlist was created since the beginning of ADV in the early 2000s and incrementally changed since then to maintain the balance of the metagame. Even if it turns out that having the latis around produces a balanced metagame, it would be a significant change. Making such significant changes requires extensive testing, council approval, and implicitly, the acceptance of the playerbase. ADV OU is good where it is now, so such a change is very unlikely to materialize.
significant testing?testing by whom?
I know that once some years ago arceus got unbanned for a year from gen 4 and people had to vote in the end of the year if they wanted it to stay unbanned or if they wanted it to go back to the ban list,why can't we do the same about latios and latias?

I read in smogon that in ubers they are both countered by blissey and metagross,which are both allowed in OU.
 

vapicuno

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significant testing?testing by whom?
I know that once some years ago arceus got unbanned for a year from gen 4 and people had to vote in the end of the year if they wanted it to stay unbanned or if they wanted it to go back to the ban list,why can't we do the same about latios and latias?

I read in smogon that in ubers they are both countered by blissey and metagross,which are both allowed in OU.
The metagame is as it is right now because it is still fresh and evolving well. Some people I know even think that ADV OU evolves faster than SS OU. I believe the council is not inclined to fix what isn't broken.

can someone post somewhere here a guide on how to make a mono-type team?
Check out https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-overused-ladder-achievements.3697401/post-9150347
 

vapicuno

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The ADV OU council is group who have demonstrated their metagame knowledge with good results and they are tasked with making tiering decisions for ADV OU. The council members are Star, M Dragon, McMeghan, Gilbert arenas, and undisputed.
 
I want to ask one thing about the tiers in pokemon showdown:

do they change automatically as the metagame evolves or they change manually?

I am asking because even though claydol is classified as OU I almost never encounter it.
shouldn't it be in UU or UUBL instead?

I encounter smeargle more often than I encounter claydol(it is not a super common pokemon,but still more common than claydol).
is there a way to see how often each pokemon is used on pokemon showdown?
 

vapicuno

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high level games?
are you talking about players with high ranks?(mine is low around 1086).
If you'd like to see yourself reach those higher levels, I would recommend the OP, especially vapicuno's 2018 guide. It gives a background into basic ADV archetypes that is relevant even today. A great way to learn ADV (and competitive mons in general) is to take a sample team and ladder with it. This is an excellent resource, but to make it even easier, this is considered the standard team in ADV OU. I would take it and keep laddering with it, you should easily be able to break out of 1086 and maybe see higher level games. Most of the top players ladder on a decent frequency, so it can be a great place to learn how to play and what to do.
 
I mostly lurk here as an ADV nostalgist, but I've also found M Dragon's post here pretty cool to see different team archetypes and strats, though of course some of them are outdated/not considered ideal by now.
 
If you'd like to see yourself reach those higher levels, I would recommend the OP, especially vapicuno's 2018 guide. It gives a background into basic ADV archetypes that is relevant even today.
I don't know if there are better guides out there or not but this is not helpful and I am afraid that I will get penalized again if I go to any details about the things wrong with it.
but still thanks for the reccomendation.
 
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I don't know if there are better guides out there or not but this is not helpful and I am afraid that I will get penalized again if I go to any details about the things wrong with it.
but still thanks for the reccomendation.
My friend, no one is out to get you. There is no need to adopt a woe is me mentality. We all want to just enjoy this fun but flawed game as best we can. What would be helpful to you? If you don't feel comfortable here, pm here or on discord, I'm happy to answer.
 
just yesterday I got a "lurk more" warning on my account because I asked some guy to speak more coherently even though there is no rule against it.
mybe just maybe its for something else.... that is more of being an ass than anything. Lurk more is pretty much "you are not knowledgeable enough of the meta, please read more about it before posting"
 

vapicuno

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just yesterday I got a "lurk more" warning on my account because I asked some guy to speak more coherently even though there is no rule against it.
There is a right time and place for everything. I would like to assure you that you will not be penalized for criticizing or providing feedback on any resources in this thread. This is, after all, the place for beginners to converse and get help on learning the metagame, and if something isn't helping then we can find other ways for you to learn.

However, please be mindful of posting in other threads. I would suggest reading other major threads in this forum to understand the nature and quality of posts that is expected. With regard to your "lurk more" warning on the other thread, since you have raised an infraction appeal to the senior staff (to which I have responded to), we shall resolve it there.
 
just a question:why is the third generation called ADV instead of RS?
all the other generations seem to be named after the games that got released at the time,so why call this one"advanced"?
I understand that it is one of the most important generations in the history of competitive pokemon but so is gen 4.
 

BT89

go on, take everything
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just a question:why is the third generation called ADV instead of RS?
all the other generations seem to be named after the games that got released at the time,so why call this one"advanced"?
I understand that it is one of the most important generations in the history of competitive pokemon but so is gen 4.
ADV is a reference to the Game Boy Advance, since Ruby and Sapphire were the first games to be released on that console. It is mostly called ADV over RS/RSE mostly because ADV simply sounds better.
 

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