Smogon Forums

So you agree that adding such an expensive opportunity cost in the form of beating Sleep AND everything else is problematic? Otherwise, I don't really get your point here.

Except those turns don't matter. The one free turn is what matters. The game isn't rng based.

If a pokemon has the right combination of moves and stats for a certain strategy, then is it really bad? Jumpluff has the perfect tools necessary SubSeed stalls, just like PZ has the tools to use a Choice Scarf Hyper Beam set.

My point is that sleep doesn't differ from other broadly defined strategies. People are just looking at sleep because it doesn't match the other strategies. If a really strong pokemon uses a certain strategy, adapt to it. Just like when Protect/Disable was used against slow choice users, or Fake Out pokemon are used against Sturdy pokemon.

The one free turn is just to neutralize the turn spent putting them to sleep. Everything after that is RNG, quite literally, as in, there are set % chances for the opponent to wake up and stay asleep. That is literally the definition of RNG.

It can be. Scarf Excadrill does pretty well with Horn Drill and Fissure, but I'm sure you notice a clear distinction there.

People are looking at Sleep because it forces matches to more of an RNG extent than they were already in without them- You can adapt to it about as well as you can adapt to Taunting a Double Team user before they can set up, or a Swagger user before they can confuse you.

Secondly, there is no "too strong/not strong enough" in this discussion, because Sleep is not broken, it's uncompetitive. Its use ruins the fundamental ideas behind smogon's definition of Skill and allows bad players to beat good ones more than they already can in this RNG-dominated metagame.

Look at jumpluff. On your free turn you set up sub in an attempt to set up another free turn, on the next turn if they sleep you seed and win, if they wake you reset sleep and then repeat the process. The sleep turn roll doesn't matter because no matter the outcome jumpluff will establish its free turns and win.

Scarf OHKO literally defined a match by a roll. Sleep does not and has not been shown to.

Except you still haven't actually shown the RNG and just keep presuming it's there.

I agree strength isn't relevant. But you can't treat this issue as RNG-based issue without showing it is.

Pause. The "free turn" when it comes to Speed Traps is the very turn they put the opponent to sleep. Every turn afterwards, the opponent has a chance at waking up. Unless you're implying the "free turn" as the chanced net gain of turns.

You asked me for proof, now I ask you for proof, how is Sleep NOT roll-dominated, or even roll-biased?

Here's an illustration of the RNG that goes into using Sleep https://pastebin.com/PBK9bdvr

The free turn generated is the turn they go to sleep yes. But what they do in the subsequent turn generates more free turns, which is the point.
Smogon policy "III.) Providing justification is the onus of the side changing the status quo. "

Ok, first adamant Zard X shouldn't be run actually ever, and if it is, shame on those people. Secondly, this isn't the sleep users cheating a win. An adamant zard x falls into vivillion's speed trap, so it should lose, but instead of changing the important factor (it's nature) Zard X adds a move which then puts the match in the hands on RNG.

But also this isn't a common or normal match up at all. This is a cherry picked spread against a very specific sleep user to try and justify something is what it isn't.

The one downside, unfortunately, and surprisingly people only find out about this until this very discussion in order to justify their lack of reasoning for wanting to keep Sleep- If you want it to be known that Sleep wasn't banned only because lazy people couldn't be bothered to explain or even think about why they think it should stay, then by all means, live up to those expectations.

The illustration wasn't for illustrating the viability of sets (though Adamant usage has spiked up, on account of kyub getting booted). The point is also not to tell people what they should and shouldn't use.

As you yourself acknowledged, RNG was indeed enforced in this matchup, now imagine how many more potential matchups could result in similar RNG, even with the slightest changes in sets, like running Adamant over Jolly or running Flame Charge.

How can you even suggest that it's a cherry-picked argument without considering other matchups? Plenty of matchups end up like this. I suggest putting in some legitimate research before letting your feelings act as your reasoning.

First of all, I’ve never made an argument for a change without justification. When I argued for Blaziken unban I put evidence saying it would be balanced. I never said “hey people show me it’s broken” so don’t act like I’m just arguing out of convenience,

Secondly, adamant X throws the mirror which is why it shouldn’t be run and should naturally balance itself out even if it surges