People blatantly not reading the thread when they say this is only an issue because of Darkrai, given the policy review thread linked in the last page which shows a discussion of Sleep Clause in gen 8 as well. Either way, I agree that sleep is the most egregious of the status effects with the most reasonable distribution (as freeze is, well freeze), but I dunno about how I feel about a sleep moves ban on the whole. Its effectively banning a status, which I feel would make Paralysis (only really carried meaningfully by the speed decrease imo) and Freeze huge topics of discussion.
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Metagame Views From The Council
- Thread starter njnp
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I do not believe that sleep should be banned so far as while I have heard lead Darkrai has been running around in OU, Sleep as a whole mechanic would set a bad precedence for other mechanics. This is about banning a whole status condition, the only time something like this has ever happened was in Gen 5 when sleep was so overwhelmingly overpowered that they banned it. If you didn't know, gen 5 sleep had it reset your sleep counter if you switched out before you woke up, basically making it a ko. Sleep right now is nowhere close to that amount of broken and if it somehow did, then it would most likely be one move/mon that would get banned. People need to show multiple mons that are breaking the mechanic and besides darkrai potentially, I do not see any other mon that breaks sleep. Gamefreak for once realised that something like spore should have limited distribution, with amoonguss being the best spore user. Is amoonguss banworthy? No way in hell. If something has to rely on 60% accuracy with massive drawbacks if they miss, than that most likely is not banworthy. If darkrai is used as an example, ban darkrai simple as that.
I would further like to go in depth about how it would still be a mod, because how would keeping something like effect spore, relic song or rest be not a wide ban, but rather a complex ban. Say what you will, but smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. There may need to be discussion about complex bans, but I believe that this is what the council trys to avoid when they talk about complex bans. Stuff that cherry picks the stuff they like, to avoid just biting the bullet and going the full yard. Sure, one of them has a 10% chance to sleep and is tied to a bad mon in OU, the other is only for contact moves and is random, while the last is self inflicted, but if sleep was broken, wouldn't effect spore be spammed in OU? I may sound dumb, but I need to make something clear. We can't half ass this, we have to define whether we do nothing, or we ban sleep as a whole. Don't try to cherry pick.
Finally, my first line was that it would set a bad precedence. Many people have advocated for a freeze clause, which is dumb in my opinion, freeze is not a problem as there is no reliable way to spam it ice beam spam is not close enough to count. This also could lead to people wanting to ban stuff like paralysis or worse any accuracy missing moves. Is paralysis banworthy? No way in hell. Many people in this thread would agree with me on that, but let's think about the masses, the casual player base. They will see that a status condition that can be very RNG reliant, and look at paralysis that does "similar" things and advocate its ban. I know this line of thinking is dumb, but lets be real. People are dumb a lot of the time. Just look at the uber drops people have been wanting. This would just clog up thinking for years due to people new to the scene saying "actually, I think it should be banned". If something has a bit of RNG to it, good. I don't think a game like pokemon should have no RNG elements, that's part of the fun and skill in working around the RNG and makes games unique.
In conclusion, there hasn't been much of an arguement on the widespread banworthiness of sleep as the main perpretrator has been darkrai, which if itself is the problem people point to about sleep, should get banned, and it feels kinda idk, scummy to me. We are not going the full yard and banning the full mechanic. That would lead to stuff like rest and yawn being banned, which isn't broken. People have said that a move with 60% accuracy is banworthy, but let me tell you this, that is a problem for the mons abusing it, not the move. Even if the move is the problem, I don't believe something like sleep powder to be banworthy.
That's just my two cents, but please be nice in this thread. We all have different opinions, so hear each other out before going for the throat.
I would further like to go in depth about how it would still be a mod, because how would keeping something like effect spore, relic song or rest be not a wide ban, but rather a complex ban. Say what you will, but smogon avoids complex bans like the plague. There may need to be discussion about complex bans, but I believe that this is what the council trys to avoid when they talk about complex bans. Stuff that cherry picks the stuff they like, to avoid just biting the bullet and going the full yard. Sure, one of them has a 10% chance to sleep and is tied to a bad mon in OU, the other is only for contact moves and is random, while the last is self inflicted, but if sleep was broken, wouldn't effect spore be spammed in OU? I may sound dumb, but I need to make something clear. We can't half ass this, we have to define whether we do nothing, or we ban sleep as a whole. Don't try to cherry pick.
Finally, my first line was that it would set a bad precedence. Many people have advocated for a freeze clause, which is dumb in my opinion, freeze is not a problem as there is no reliable way to spam it ice beam spam is not close enough to count. This also could lead to people wanting to ban stuff like paralysis or worse any accuracy missing moves. Is paralysis banworthy? No way in hell. Many people in this thread would agree with me on that, but let's think about the masses, the casual player base. They will see that a status condition that can be very RNG reliant, and look at paralysis that does "similar" things and advocate its ban. I know this line of thinking is dumb, but lets be real. People are dumb a lot of the time. Just look at the uber drops people have been wanting. This would just clog up thinking for years due to people new to the scene saying "actually, I think it should be banned". If something has a bit of RNG to it, good. I don't think a game like pokemon should have no RNG elements, that's part of the fun and skill in working around the RNG and makes games unique.
In conclusion, there hasn't been much of an arguement on the widespread banworthiness of sleep as the main perpretrator has been darkrai, which if itself is the problem people point to about sleep, should get banned, and it feels kinda idk, scummy to me. We are not going the full yard and banning the full mechanic. That would lead to stuff like rest and yawn being banned, which isn't broken. People have said that a move with 60% accuracy is banworthy, but let me tell you this, that is a problem for the mons abusing it, not the move. Even if the move is the problem, I don't believe something like sleep powder to be banworthy.
That's just my two cents, but please be nice in this thread. We all have different opinions, so hear each other out before going for the throat.
This is what happens when we lose Tapu Koko and Tapu Fini ig
I don't mind a sleep ban as I don't feel too strongly about it either way, and I've seen how dangerous it can be when left unchecked (Gen 5 OU before the ban) but I haven't faced any issues personally while laddering. Either way, if it has to go, I won't make much of a fuss. Losing to Sleep RNG feels just as bad as losing to a random Freeze ngl.
Also I agree with some other posters here and I hope that Yawn gets excluded, mostly for its utility.
I don't mind a sleep ban as I don't feel too strongly about it either way, and I've seen how dangerous it can be when left unchecked (Gen 5 OU before the ban) but I haven't faced any issues personally while laddering. Either way, if it has to go, I won't make much of a fuss. Losing to Sleep RNG feels just as bad as losing to a random Freeze ngl.
Also I agree with some other posters here and I hope that Yawn gets excluded, mostly for its utility.
be that as it may, the only reason we're having the discussion at this particular time and not earlier or later in the gen is because of darkrai, and sleep moves clause has never actually been implemented in a non-bw gen before, so one could argue that darkrai has played a part here
I support a Sleep Clause removal and am against bans on sleeping moves. For too long have my cheese "sticky web+scarf spore breloom" been OPPRESSED by BIG CLAUSE so its time to knock down this tyrant once and for all, and for more Pokémon to go to sleep.
Sure, but any discussion will start because something moved the needle. Darkrai gains the most from being matchup fishy with its chip, setup opportunities, and speed tier, but the discussion does not appear to me as simple as Darkrai showed up and made sleep problematic, but rather sleep always has been such, and tiering philosophy has mostly led to us just keeping old Sleep Clause. As seen in the linked policy review thread, this topic does show up, albiet somewhat infrequently while under different meta conditions.
Whether or not the move is worth keeping is smth that is looked at... when king rock was being banned what did we gain from keeping it in the tier... sleep is unhealthy and not fun to go up against... but smth like gliscor was argued to be fair and healthy during its suspect test something people advocated for.
You can also be broken and contribute a lot to the tier which was a lot of the kingambit suspect test.. people said it was a glue mon in OU and banning it would cause a lot of collateral damage
is king rock really broken? cloyster even with it was a B tier pokemon so why ban smth that isnt broken? The question should be "what do we gain from doing this action" and "is this thing worth keeping in the tier"
What do we gain from keeping king rock cloyster in the tier and doing its shit... people argued kingambit added a lot to the tier and shouldnt be banned same with tera but smth like sleep... what are its positives? you sure listed a bunch of stuff but what is healthy about sleep?
Hypnosis is bullshit on every mon that runs it lmao, whether it be Darkrai or a random ass Golduck. The main reason it's more bullshit on Darkrai tho is that it completely smokes all the absorbers. Amoongus get goobed by ghold and glisc, Atales and val lose to Ghold, but darkrai beats ghold. Losing 1 - 3 turns from Hypnosis also makes the effect of sleep very RNg based imo, where you are praying to get a full 3 turn sleep on crap to win various interactions. .
Yawn imo isn't too unhealthy so perhaps an exception can be made to it but other sleep moves should be banned I think. I personally do not like the way Sleep Clause is implemented currently, especially given that Encore is a much more popular option this gen so encoding amoongus into spore or something is a greater possibility this gen.
Yawn imo isn't too unhealthy so perhaps an exception can be made to it but other sleep moves should be banned I think. I personally do not like the way Sleep Clause is implemented currently, especially given that Encore is a much more popular option this gen so encoding amoongus into spore or something is a greater possibility this gen.
this isn't how it works. under our tiering philosophy, the burden of proof should always lie on the people who want to change the status quo, not the people who want to keep it. the fundamental premise of ou is that it's the most permissive balanced tier, so the status quo is "allow things". asking "why should we keep this" instead of "why should we ban this" shifts the burden of proof to the people who want to keep the status quo. sleep not adding anything shouldn't even enter into the conversation
"Hypnosis and Sleep Powder are worse moves than Spore, so ban Hypnosis and Sleep powder but not Spore"
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Sleep is gross. It always has been.
Sleep as a whole is just an RNG fiesta of a mechanic. Spore is probably the least egregious example, so I will use it as the favorable example of Sleep rng. Spore hits your pokemon, effectively soft KOing it for the forseeable future. Then you have sleep rolls, which can make the situation salvageable or completely hopeless based on 33% rolls. Sleep rolls deciding games is just as stupid as Kings Rock cheese. It's just that unlike King's Rock, we have effectively grandfathered in Sleep due to Sleep clause. This is even worse with moves like Hypnosis and Sleep Powder, both of which have even less accuracy and offer the same amount of reward.
I know some people want to just point the finger at Darkrai, but if I am going to be honest Sleep has been an awful play pattern for some time. Having to sack a mon to sleep or having your Valiant or Venusaur check get cheesed due to sleep turns is awful feeling. The mechanic has always added such a gross amount of RNG and just is not competitivve. If our goal is to remove as much RNG from the tier and make the game as competitive as possible, Sleep is our original sin.
In terms of how to handle it, I would just hit everything outside of Rest. Rest is distinct from most other forms of sleep since you are only asleep for two turns and it happens only due to the user putting themselves to Sleep. You could maybe convince me Yawn isn't banworthy, but honestly I would just make the ban as clean as possible. I do not care much if banning Effect Spore makes Vileplume worse in RU, or if banning Relic Song makes us unable to do funny Meloetta sets. I am fine with as clean of a cut sleep ban as possible. Yawn, Hypnosis, Effect Spore, Spore, you name it. Save Rest and kill the rest.
seriously, it's like saying "skymin would be less uncompetitive if air slash was 100% flinch chance instead of 60 because there's less randomness"
"why should we keep this" is still a valid argument... why should we ban king rock and why should we keep king rock are similar questions..
I said why sleep should be banned... you can just miss it and now you can possibly go from there... if you hit hypnosis on amoonguss with valiant you are given a lot of room to setup and do stuff.. i listed that in my reasons.
Now imagine if they miss, you know amoonguss walls the crap out of vailant so you bring in your low hp archuldon to sack it to sleep and bring it bcak in... oh but they missed... so now you stare down another scenario of dumb stuff going on. same applies to darkrai
Now imagine you do land hypnosis on amoonguss... if you get 1 turn you cannot do much and you prob die trying to use knock off or setting up to +4, if you get 3 turns you just run home with the game.. that sounds pretty unfair to me that you just get a 33% chance to just lose horribly. that isnt fun and should prob go
There are lots of ways to play around sleep, or as you mention in this section, hypnosis. There are countless abilities that nerf being slept, there are items that can be ran to cure sleep, there are field environments, moves, abilities. And I know most of these are not competitively viable, but something as simple as placing a lum berry on a counter against a pokemon like iron valient or darkrai shuts down their entire gameplan. And it doesn't even have to be it's counter, you can reverse the situation and setup in front of them and sweep. The point of this reply is to state there are many options, and while some might not be chosen, there are still options that are competitively viable to stop, prevent, and reverse situations. The overall point I'm getting at isn't that you need to run these options, but that sleep is not broken enough to being openly banned.
I support removing sleep clause mod in its current iteration as Showdown should not have non cart-accurate play. It's such a blatant outlier to the rule, and the fact it has remained in place comes more down to resistance to change. Such a clause would never have been implemented today.
However I'm not really behind a ban of sleep entirely. The reasonings seem shaky at best. Other tiers don't have sleep absorbers like Ghold and yet very few Pokemon get banned for sleep moves. It has contributed in the past to lower tier bans in gen 7 like Breloom, Venomoth, or Lilligant. But the same could be said of paralysis, which is only slightly less bullshit than sleep and contributed to the ban of Zygarde in the past.
I would much prefer keeping sleep clause but coding it in a way that is cart accurate. Like a basic "you can't click a sleep move unless it's literally your only option" like you just got encored and it's your last Pokemon.
Sleep is bullshit and I'd hardly cry over a ban, but it opens up a can of worms to a paralysis ban. Paralysis is far more widespread and contributes to some majorly bullshit fishy strategies.
However I'm not really behind a ban of sleep entirely. The reasonings seem shaky at best. Other tiers don't have sleep absorbers like Ghold and yet very few Pokemon get banned for sleep moves. It has contributed in the past to lower tier bans in gen 7 like Breloom, Venomoth, or Lilligant. But the same could be said of paralysis, which is only slightly less bullshit than sleep and contributed to the ban of Zygarde in the past.
I would much prefer keeping sleep clause but coding it in a way that is cart accurate. Like a basic "you can't click a sleep move unless it's literally your only option" like you just got encored and it's your last Pokemon.
Sleep is bullshit and I'd hardly cry over a ban, but it opens up a can of worms to a paralysis ban. Paralysis is far more widespread and contributes to some majorly bullshit fishy strategies.
Sleep as a mechanic is uncompetitive and in this generation the issue has come to the forefront with many abusers, particularly Dakrai, being able to abuse it. Sleep in gen 9 is especially volatile, because as much as people want to point towards strategies like misty terrain, electric terrain, and sleep talk all of these picks are suboptimal or force the player facing sleep into either worse team composition or, in the case of sleep talk, increased rng. In my eyes there is no reason keep sleep in the tier, it forces very frustrating scenarios in most cases and increases rng related shenanigans in a game where we are trying to increase competitive aspects.
Darkrai is definitely then most heinous abuser of sleep, but the mechanic is frustrating even when seen on other mons like Amoonguss and even niche picks like Venusaur and Liligant-H on sun. Additionally, retaining sleep moves in the tier does not add enough to offset the frustration and just unfun scenarios spawned by it. Yes balance and BO teams lose out on slight progress making with Amoonguss, but they have other avenues with which to force progress, which are arguably more viable and universally applicable, such as knock off with spikes support.
It just seems like a no brainer. We want to keep the game as honest as possible, so why not ban something that inherently causes frustration and makes the game less interactive? Whether you want sleep or just Darkrai to start,I don't care, but I do think that Darkrai is a positive presence as a ghost resist and utility mon outside of hypnosis sets.
Darkrai is definitely then most heinous abuser of sleep, but the mechanic is frustrating even when seen on other mons like Amoonguss and even niche picks like Venusaur and Liligant-H on sun. Additionally, retaining sleep moves in the tier does not add enough to offset the frustration and just unfun scenarios spawned by it. Yes balance and BO teams lose out on slight progress making with Amoonguss, but they have other avenues with which to force progress, which are arguably more viable and universally applicable, such as knock off with spikes support.
It just seems like a no brainer. We want to keep the game as honest as possible, so why not ban something that inherently causes frustration and makes the game less interactive? Whether you want sleep or just Darkrai to start,I don't care, but I do think that Darkrai is a positive presence as a ghost resist and utility mon outside of hypnosis sets.
I was going to say that we shouldn't be cart accurate because the cart is sometimes dumb, but you mentioned a good point in that you should not be able to click the sleep move unless you are encored in to it. This prevents a lot of the arguements about it not being cart accurate, as it would technically be able to be replicated in game. I don't agree with your idea that is simply should be removed due to "cart accuracy", but you have come up with a cool solution to your problems, and that I can respect.
If we hypothetically Sleep moves, would that include Rest, which would be self-induced?
all of this is entirely correct and these are very good reasons for sleep to be banned. no "why should we keep this" necessary
not really. "why should we keep this" assumes that the default position is banning anything that gets discussed and that things need to justify their own existence in the tier. why should we keep, say, togekiss? paraflinch is uncompetitive rng cheese and no one would miss togekiss if it went, so why bother leaving it around? the answer is "because that's not how we operate"
Seconding this, yawn has actual utility when it comes to forcing things out and positioning your mons properly. Nowhere near as cheap as the other moves and 99/100 times you're not staying in on yawn (which perhaps demonstrates that sleep is dumb)
i have literally never seen something fall asleep due to yawn this entire generation (and i've seen yawn quite a bit), so i think considering it a sleep move is a bit silly. it's a phazing move with a fancy hat on. they could have changed what it does on turn 2 and i wouldn't even notice
It can make the opponent sleep, thus making it a sleep move.
That would probably meaning not banning the drowsy mechanic, which is what yawn does. Although this immediately causes sleep the next turn, it technically is a different mechanic. While I do not think that yawn should be excluded from a full sleep ban if that goes ahead, it does at least have different mechanics meaning it does not fall under the main umbrella, at least to an extent.
but it doesn't directly put you to sleep, it inflicts the volatile status condition "drowsy". admittedly the entire function of that condition is to become sleep after one turn, but the thing yawn inflicts is not called sleep. the status condition is what puts opponents to sleep, not the move. and the status condition isn't even exclusive to yawn—grimmsnarl's gmax move made opponents drowsy too, so there are multiple drowsy moves. it's technically a separate category, similar to how perish song is a separate thing from ohko moves despite inflicting a volatile status condition that ohkos you
also, i've seen more people be put to sleep by metronome than yawn, and i don't consider metronome a sleep move, even though it technically has a 1 in [i refuse to do this math] chance to indirectly put the opponent to sleep by calling a sleep move
but ultimately, if yawn is included in sleep moves clause, i'm not gonna be heartbroken over it because the status condition is still bullshit
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