AAA Almost Any Ability - Walking Wake is banned!

[Betticus IV]

Let's suspect test Ice Scales

While it would be fun/interesting to see what the meta would look like with ice scales in it, I think that for the health of the meta in the short and long term it would be better to test individual mons before adding an ability that halves all special attack damage. I also don't believe that ice scales setup will be limited to bulk up + recovery, and instead could be used by things with SD or NP to set up and just invest in bulk to live any hit. I believe damage amp abilities are being overvalued here since many mons can function without these abilities and still do huge damage with just regular set-up. Set-up + ice scales doesn't need to be immediately game winning, being able to punch a big enough hole in a team would be more than enough, and I think it would be easier to snowball than not with ice scales since it wouldn't be immediately obvious the mon is running the ability. There would also simply be no reason to not use it, and it would have an offensive presence that regen does not that would make it as if not more centralizing than regen. My final point will be that I simply don't think the meta needs it, g9 has always been full of heavy hitters/more offensive mons than previous gens, and I think atp it has to be accepted that the baseline power level is stronger. There are still ways to answer the meta, but it is more offensively oriented than ever before, which isn't bad compared to defensive answers, just different. I would be more open to suspecting individual mons that put this pressure like wake and deos before susing the ability.

Our special attackers are extremely varied:

I don't believe you should be able to answer all of these threats with just a regenvest, and if you use just one wall to answer a whole form of attacking it is always gonna be p rough. Even with this sentiment, less than a week ago people were complaining about how nothing beats mana and it just sits there, gets health back, and 'never dies' so I am not too sure about the shakiness of some of the regenvesters. The mons listed in this section all have meaningful counterplay outside of regenvest that needs to be considered when building in terms of resistances and immunities. Immunities especially are an integral part of AAA, and having ice scales freed lowers need for them and makes gameplay less dynamic as there isn't any inherent risk in running IS when compared to immunity abilites. Even the physical lowering abilities have risk/drawbacks: fluffy is weak to fires/only on contact and intim only lowers by one stage and is susceptible to set-up, but ice scales has no drawback, it is an effective doubling of one's spdef. The reason that regenvest sometimes doesn't feel like enough is because the best of the best special attackers have ways of getting rid of an AV, and to that I would say the problem lies more in those mons than needing ice scales to fix it. Even then there are more fundamental teambuilding issues at play if a team autoloses if a special mon gets a knock on the regenvest. This also applies to physical attackers as one shouldn't be using just intim or just fluffy to answer them. The best of the best physical attackers also have ways to muscle through these abilities, and using only these answers will always leave holes in a team defensively. 'Overloading' a team with checks and/or using more offensive mons to defensively check some of the biggest threats (mglo rmoon and scarf ghold are prime examples) is something I think one should be doing more often in this meta and not relying on fatter/slower cores to get by. Putting in a bunch of soft checks that are able to pivot in your offensive threats that scare these mons out/force a KO is huge. Finally, one has to put more faith in some special checks like moon, ghold, tran, and stail as these can easily switch in on many spdef mons; it just isn't nearly as free as regenvest.

I am not super against a test after individuals are looked at and it is still seen as an issue, but I think as of now ice scales would be a bandaid over some of the larger 'problem' mons and lock out many weaker spatkers like stail and lead to more centralization in what special mons you could viably use, which wouldn't be nearly as fun or competitive (I put a high enjoyment and comp on the most recent survey so this could be bias but whatev).

In summary: test the individual mons first, a team should already have more varied ways outside of regenvest to take on special mons, ice scales would get rid of this variation and centralize with regen as the blanket answers, and the meta is always gonna lean offensively so let's just go with it.

 

[LordBox]

Survey Results!

Thank you to the 38 that responded! With responses having significantly slowed down and some interesting results, here are the results, stick around for the end for ANOTHER SURVEY! (mini-sized)

Average Enjoyability: 7.47/10

A fairly fine score, though not entirely perfect, does signify general happiness or acceptance with the enjoyability of games at the moment which is good to hear that we're not completely failing.

Average Competitiveness: 7.68/10

Similar to before, with a slightly higher score. Once again, not perfect, but is a sign of a mostly satisfactory state of competitiveness in the meta and we dont need to super rush things right now.

Short Answer Responses:

Manaphy (2): Being such a pivotal defensive piece within the meta, with such little support dredged up so far it is quite unlikely for much action to occur. While true, it has almost monopolizing degree in terms of the Regen slot, it is not quite yet up to its DLC1 state with other Regens like Ting-Lu and Swampert still squeezing out their own place and more offensive teams popping up with all types of diverse uses. It's not overtly broken either, with plenty of play available to threaten or break it. Its ability to consistently make progress is annoying, but doesn't notably warp most teams who just accept it. Stall is a notable exception... but without much of a case argued, there's little chance for any form of action.

Zamazenta-Hero (2): Fairly unlikely. Zamazenta has put up ok results, but nothing to show much of it being broken. Popular checks to CB/ID are abound in the likes of Pecharunt, Scream Tail, Zapdos, Dragonite and Fluffy Corv with varying degrees of effectiveness while not being impossible to revenge yet with PsySurge Azelf maintaining popularity as well as other strong scarfers like Walking Wake. While its IDBP sets can be annoyingly fishy, without any better showings and more solid support it's unlikely for Zama-H to see any action for the forseeable future.

Good as Gold (2): Guys we have two (two) viable removers and you want to test GaG...

Sword of Ruin (2): Little chance. Sword of Ruin while a strong ability, is not without competition and would be easily replaceable in its absence by the likes of Tough Claws, Adaptability and even other boosting abilities. Furthermore there's not really widespread issue with the ability so, no chance.

Desolate Land and Primordial Sea (2): Unlikely. These abilities have defined the meta for generations and have been comfortably adapted to for all it. While there are arguments for their power being a bit warping, there's too little support to justify any kind of action here.

Iron Bundle (2): Fairly unlikely. With an incredible speed tier that can let it pressure and force out a lot of the meta and having strong coverage with STAB Water and Freeze-Dry, Iron Bundle can put a great amount of pressure on the special slot of a team. While specialised checks are somewhat popular, ie Wabs Heatran and Iron Moth, Iron Moth isn't particularly safe with Specs Adapt IBeam doing chunks, and it always retaining the ability to pivot freely to enable other teammates greatly and the special slots are pressured enough as is.

Poison Heal (2): While Poison Heal opens up an interesting avenue for more defensive cplay, its unhealthy ability in enabling potent setup sweepers proven both in the past and tested far back in the generation (though granted it was a very different meta) has shown its historically outweighted its positives and would need some firm support and argument to free again, which it lacks here so little chance.

Ceruledge (3): Ceruledge is an exceptionally powerful mon, but has for the most part proven somewhat balanced. While undoubtedly strong, it does not completely lack defensive checks with itemless checks and Regen Ting-Lu popping up more often as well as Fire immunities being pretty common to allow some degree of defensive cplay while struggling quite hard into the more offensively paced teams of the meta with its low speed and general frailty in bulk, typing and rocks weakness. Unlikely to see action.

Dragonite (3): As of now, there's not too much support for action on DNite, so it's unlikely for the forseeable future. While Dragonite is definitely an annoying mon with the plethora of coverage it can run to annoy checks like Fluffy Corv and ilk, for the most part there has been little evidence for it being properly too strong and most teams have been able to adapt mostly fine with the likes of Pecha and STail proving popular among other mainstays like PsySurge Azelf, all culminating in a lack of real support that leads to little chance of action.

Noivern (3): Very unlikely. Noivern has proven extremely strong wallbreaker with Choice Specs, and while it does not completely lacks checks and neutral cplay in a vacuum, its ease of use, speed and strength means in reality it simply is too overbearing for the majority of neutral checks and would exert pressure for more specialised checks (doing 40+ to Max SpD AV Mana). There already is considerable pressure from other special breakers in the current meta, so there's little chance we will free another one that's so strong.

Toxic Debris (3): Unlikely for now. Having been suspected into oblivion only a few months ago, more support and argumentation is required to push forward any action on Toxic Debris, Pecharunt is a decent case but at the same time removal is pretty awful at the same time with Pecharunt around...

Lugia (4): Not given much consideration for now. While it has its name pop up now and then for quite a while, the benefit it offers are little and Bulky CM sets are potentially quite detrimental in their strength and just general fishiness. Arguably, they wouldn't be much worse than other similar sets for mons like Cresselia, but without much more support or a case put forward, it isn't something at the top of our priority to push action forward for given other pressing matters.

Roaring Moon (4): Pretty unlikely to see action. Roaring Moon is certainly quite strong, with an insane amount of popularity in recent months however that does not necessarily entail it being outright broken or unhealthy with checks like Fluffy Corv and Regen Ting-Lu popping up to strong popularity along with mainstays like Tusk always popular. While consistent, and can certainly break through these checks with play and time, it can often be played around fairly well and there's not too much outright support calling for its ban.

Chien-Pao (5): Unlikely for now. Chien-Pao has held a controversial position in the past, and still to a degree now even but its relevance has far fallen from its past. With Manaphy rising in popularity as well as the like of Empoleon, Heatran and Tect Ting-Lu, CB Chien-Pao has struggled far more in this meta, indicated with its low usage and winrates with Fluffy Corv being far more popular in spite of it and showing a lack of too much constraint caused by Chien Pao. As such, there's no real reason for worry or action against CPao, for now.

Zacian (5): A maybe, but for the future and only if there's an increase in support. The notion of freeing Zacian-Crowned has floated around for quite a while now but has lacked solid strength to push through the suspect. There's certainly some argument to be made for it, but with its insane speed and strengths some more support will be needed.

2 Ability Clause/No Ability Clause (5): An interesting idea that has gone through its ups and downs in popularity for quite a while, popping up very recently again as perhaps a change to alleviate teambuilding pressure caused by the numerous strong special attackers in the meta. Still, it constitutes a rather large change affecting several mons and the entire meta, so it requires far more support before any real action can be taken.

Fur Coat + Scales (3), Ice Scales (2): As can be seen in the above posts Ice Scales have popped up as a new idea for fixing the skewed dynamic between special attackers and their defensive counterplay. We can see this in the survey as well, with 2 of the mentions specifically mentioning Scales alone. While Fur Coat has a general lack of support due to the amount of setup sweepers, Ice Scales alone is a more interesting proposition that could possibly be explored further...

Sneasler (6): Ehhh. While there was some decent support in the survey, there has been little support elsewhere stirred. Sneasler is undoubtedly quite a strong mon with a speed tier outpacing RMoons, 130 base ATK, strong STABs and coverage with SD, personally I'm gonna need some more convincing. On the other side of the coin, Pecharunt and Gholdengo serve as popular dual-resists while Fluffy Corv still remains popular, but it gets Throat Chop and Fire Punch just saying... Unlikely as of right now but a maybe in the future if it gets more support to be tested.

Enamorus (8): Being the most popular potential unban mentioned in the survey, Enamorus has also had some decent conversation stirred in the forums as well indicating some decent support. While a potential offensive nightmare, its speed isn't spectacular, can be juggled with resists and is quite frail and could possibly offer some interesting defensive benefits of the fabled Fairy type for more offensive team. Whether it'll be freed... we'll see...

Walking Wake (10): With more than a quarter of responses noting Walking Wake as a potential problematic element, Walking Wake has shown itself to be quite controversial. While lacking much direct support here in the forums, it has been brought up in discussion and shown itself quite notably in here, the prime suspect thing in the meta as of now with its strong effect on the meta shown with the likes of Manaphy, Empoleon and even stuff like Wabs Heatran/Gholdengo popping up.


With quite the list of potential action in bans and unbans and no intense consensus or incredible urge given the fairly satisfactory scores given in enjoyability, we've decided to release a new mini-survey to sus out and try to focus on potential action for the most prominent candidates brought up recently (Enamorus, Walking Wake and Ice Scales)

>>>CLICK HERE FOR MINI-SURVEY!!!!!<<<
(fill out fast!!)​

 

[DeepFriedMagikarp]

Walking Wake Ban / Suspect?

Im personally against Ice Scales, but the motivation behind wanting it i sympathize.
If you personally think that special attackers are too tough, i feel like it would make sense to first start looking at the mons then.

Its pretty unargueable imo that Walking Wake is the strongest most prevalent special attacker right now, and the one really pushing the envelope on destroying these balance cores. While technically its pure damage numbers can be recreated with other mons, none of the other candidates are nearly as good or effective. Wake has a perfect mix of very respectable bulk, speed, power, typing, high bp stab moves including the incredibly free weather ball, pivoting, and last but not least Knock Off.
In practice Walking Wake with one knock off turn and a couple sequences dismantles most reasonable defensive cores.
Because of this, we're seeing tons of usage of otherwise bad mons ran semi exclusively for Wake (they all do check other things but the main reason is here). Most of it consists of hard immunities, making it frustrating at times. Record high usage (still can be circumvented pretty easily), Water Absorb (loses once knocked lefties), Water Absorb spdef , and other things (water absorb lol). A lot of these mons and sets are pretty flawed imo and struggle agains the larger metagame as well. Its also really pushing the usage of your regenerator mon resisting water such as or , slightly pushing out some mons like . None of these options are completely safe though, and ive seen over and over again Wake win despite of it. These techs are very present in tournament play as well, with tons of water absorb and others galore. The mon is clearly a large concern in the builder
Its not only good vs more balanced teams however, as it still does very well into Offense. Oftentimes it can position itself to get a kill pretty early on, and with its bulk it likely survives any one neutral hit. The choice scarf set however is also equally viable, and my personal favorite set. It is deadly vs Offense giving you very free lines and endgames where they just lose if they are down on sacks. It still retains enough power, still being able to bust through regenvests and the likes albeit with more precise play than specs requires. This is also where flip turn is deadly, as Wake now forms strong volt-turn cores with mons such as and can still rack up rocks chip on .

However theres still fair arguments to be had against it, especially with the prominence of cores like // giving it trouble. Even i am still mixed on it, but leaning on action. The mon still generally falls under the umbrella of whats acceptable, it may just be a little too efficient. Shame cuz i realllllly like this mon lol its so so fun and i was the original Wake is broken person way ago smh

But i think it makes sense to go after some of the top mons, as Wake really enables how effective special spam is, and while there are definitely other options they have much more flaws such as or . I also recognize this wont change things too much, just nerf the style a little bit and open up more breathing room in defensive cores. Better than going for a huge paradigm shift with Ice Scales (not to mention the potential flaws with the idea)

 

[Gambit_Gamin]

are you sure that you should be asking people about how "competitive" THIS metagame is?

almost any ability is waaaay too unpredictable and silly to be "competitive".
other metagames like OU make sense, but almost any ability seems like the epitome of casual.

asking people how "balanced" the metagame is sounds like a much more reasonable thing to ask, balance is a thing on all games both casual and competitive.


that's weird, 2 qualified users asked for these 2 abilities to be removed (I asked for them but I am not qualified).
I wonder if they got that inspiration from my comment.

It's really not as unpredictable as your making it out to be. Many Pokemon only use one ability, like Chien-Pao, Azelf, Walking Wake, Iron Moth, etc. About half of abilities used are also revealed upon a Pokemon entering battle as well. If you don't know what ability a Pokemon is using, just take a look at the usage stats.

 

[Dahness]

are you sure that you should be asking people about how "competitive" THIS metagame is?

almost any ability is waaaay too unpredictable and silly to be "competitive".
other metagames like OU make sense, but almost any ability seems like the epitome of casual.

asking people how "balanced" the metagame is sounds like a much more reasonable thing to ask, balance is a thing on all games both casual and competitive.


that's weird, 2 qualified users asked for these 2 abilities to be removed (I asked for them but I am not qualified).
I wonder if they got that inspiration from my comment.

I don't get what you mean by this.I mean yeah, it's true in a way because the mons that are legal can run a lot of abilities, it might make the format feel unpredictable, but that's not true.Like with any format, there are things that are good and things that are not.
Let me give u this sample team as an example: https://pokepast.es/9a661edfc25437bb

You look at the team and think "hmm, that roaring moon is probably SOR".All u have to do is scout for either band/scarf.Same with Wake.You see it come in an sets psea, all u gotta do is scout if its specs or scarf, but considering you found out earlier that moon is the scarfer, Wake is gonna most likely be specs and so on.There are meta mons that run meta abilities.No one in the higher levels of play is gonna run some random stuff like anger shell tusk or whatever.It's literally like any other tier u might deem "competitive", as even in ou, i don't think you can tell what your opp is running just by looking at their team.

 

[cat]

people can still experiment with other abilities.

Experimenting is one of the biggest ways we find how a Pokemon is viable or not and tends to lead to new meta trends - the rise of PixiBoom STail and new sets like mixed Dnite can be alluded to that. The difference between heat / a new set that has potential to be viable and garbage is quite obvious - if i suggested, let's say, PhysDef Mana in DLC 1 where everyone was using SpDef and gave reasons on why it should be used, that would fall under the former. If I suggested using Sap Sipper Corviknight, that would fall under the former because, well, what does it do?

I don't see why wouldn't someone try to run "unaware" chien pao (or some other wall breaker) in order to deal with set up /stamina walls.

If you're going to use a more defensive ability on an offensive pokemon instead of an offensive ability, there needs to be good reasoning behind it and needs to not suffer from opportunity cost - look at bulky setup sweepers like Fluffy whatever (or if you were here for furscales, Fur Coat Flutter Mane comes to mind). Unaware Chien-Pao does not have this good reasoning this and suffers from opportunity cost too - if you're going to use Chien-Pao, why aren't you using it as a Choice Band Breaker?

 

[Isaiah]

(mini) Survey Results!​

We got 34 responses--thanks to everyone that pitched in!
Gonna speed run these because they're pretty self-explanatory and it's more of a runoff vote than a full survey :P

In essence:
- At just 44.1% explicitly interested in least attempting an Enamorus suspect test, Enamorus fails to garner enough support for a suspect test.
- After observing that Walking Wake and Ice Scales both received over 50% support for a suspect test, the council did their runoff...runoff vote on which should be done:

Ice Scales - Isaiah, Quantum Tesseract, cumps
Walking Wake - Ivar57, DeepFriedMagikarp, Atha, LordBox

So, Walking Wake is getting a suspect test! The full reasoning can be found in the suspect thread.

Why I voted for Ice Scales

Considering it's very likely that Walking Wake would be legal in an Ice Scales metagame anyway, it makes sense to me to trial the more extreme option first. Then, if Ice Scales ends up remaining banned and there's still discontent with Walking Wake, a follow-up Walking Wake suspect without the influence of a[n effectively] double spdef ability could happen.

Also, cumps has elected to step down from council. It has been a fun ride :]

 

[cumps]

team dump and thanks!

these teams have just been collecting dust in my builder. a couple have been used in tournament/posted as samples, but most haven't been shared. milage may vary for some of the older ones, but all should be at least usable in the current meta.

triple weather superman
cm scream hstack
goodra MGLO tusk BO
SFLO dreigon BO
fast + strong
WBB sinistcha BO
fuck it, sneasel (use defensive dragonite it's awesome)
dirge semistall
triple weather BO
standard stall
psyspam
mixed meow balance
storm drain yu balance
AAA RU semistall
triple immunity balance
bloodmoon HO

as I've mentioned in the discord, I'll be taking a step back from mons in general to focus on IRL stuff, and I want to thank everyone for making this past year or so such a blast. Betticus IV, congrats on council, very well deserved :)

peace y'all <3

 

[Isaiah]

Betticus IV, congrats on council, very well deserved :)

Leaked :sob: but yes, Betticus IV has joined AAA council! It shouldn't take much searching for his posts in here to figure out why :P

 

[Isaiah]

I should've just waited instead of making this a double post...

I've been reflecting on the best timing to do this for possibly the entire gen, and I think I've realized that when it comes to things like this, there is no ideal timing--you just have to send it. So, I will be stepping down from AAA tier leader and council (for real this time), and LordBox will be taking my place. The ultimate "teambuilding factory" shouldn't need an introduction; he's a very active and avid poster across the different sites, and I believe he'll continue to push the tier in the right direction.

I'll still be around, just not as a council member, so you aren't rid of me just yet!

 

[LordBox]

o7 Isaiah. Hopefully we'll still see you around and maybe we'll have a meta that can make you come back!

On the topic of making a new meta, I'm just going to dump my thoughts on the current meta and some interesting proposals thrown around before I grind the suspect as getting double crit by Wake into a healthy max SpD Wabs Skarm after a hundred turn game with stall does something to your mental.

Ice Scales is not something I strictly rule out of my mind, it does have a case. However, it is pretty a hard pill to swallow and would entail a very large shift to the meta with unpredictable results and downsides that while possibly mitigated certainly aren't nice. Before any large action, for myself and few others I can tell from sentiment, would rather push forward smaller changes forward. After all, while this meta certainly has its flaws as some people have pointed out in pushing for Ice Scales, as a whole it has received generally favourable reception so pushing forward such a large shift is just not something preferable, unless the meta really has deteriorated and we have no choice left... which neither have proven true as the pressure output by the strong special attackers can be possibly reduced by simply banning some of them or other shifts like 2AC which is still fairly large but would keep the meta mostly intact. True, you may argue that there are far too many and is an overarching problem... but at the very least can we can try other smaller measures before pushing forward such a large change to fix it, we still have some time and if Scales does pop up with some issues in the future it would be a pain to go through the suspect all over again. And for those who want it tested and free because it might not be that broken that's just a difference in matter of philosophy and well, for such an overarching shift to the meta you be better be real sure you're real comfortable that it's probably not that broken.

Walking Wake is pretty dumb. The fact I have seen Water Absorb Blissey on a serious team and Water immunity Gholdengo at least 2-3 times on serious teams should be all I really need to say about this mon but I guess not. It's true that Wake is not impossible to stop or play around against, its strong consistency as a breaker has put an immense burden on many defensive cores, and its warping effect clearly on display with these aforementioned mons appearing, a really fat Water resist or immunities required on all cores nowadays even on more offensive teams that can try to play around it. Even into checks like Water immunities and fat resists like RegenVest Manaphy/Empoleon it can still exert strong pressure and break through in the medium-long term without much trouble and that means for anything that can't keep up the pace for a second can really struggle into Wake and thus we've seen absurd ways to try to hard-counter it like Water Absorb Gholdengo which can even still struggle into Bead variant. I don't think it is necessarily bad to have mons that can try to punish bulkier teams, but Wake is absurdly consistent, absurdly strong and is not even that frail or slow. Especially with all the other big threats around, Wake feels like something that would be nice to have off our backs for defensive cores that are really particularly strained and pretty exploitable if not going at a blazing pace. While it is true other strong Water-type (see Inteleon, Volcanion) attackers exist, they as far as I can tell have never shown the meta-warping capacity Wake has with its many benefits in its speed, bulk, typing, Draco and Knock that make it easy to use and by far the most consistent. Would it fix all the issues I have found complained about? Probably not, but i think it would ease the burden, especially for bulkier cores that have recently struggled, by at least a bit.

Increasingly, Deoxys-Speed I've found is a pretty goofy mon to account for. While a bit frail with a poor defensive typing, its immense speed can give it great opportunities to force opponents out and act as a superb cleaner. It's one thing to be fast, but it's another to be fast and strong, like really strong. While its attacking stats may not seem the highest, they are acceptable enough, especially when combined with its expansive movepool. Psychic Surge Expanding Force is extremely strong, especially given Deoxys-Speed can run Modest with such a high speed stat and is complemented with an array of coverage in Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Knock Off, Superpower and even Nasty Plot and Shadow Ball. Mandibuzz? IBeam/TBolt'd. Roaring Moon, Heatran and Empoleon? Superpower'd. Gholdengo and Manaphy? Knock'd, and can be TBolt'd down for good measure or just blown up by Specs PsySurge. Sometimes Psychic STAB is not even necessary and you can all-out on your coverage and can run abilities like Protean/Sheer Force to boost them even further. It simply gets everything and can annihilate a lot of cores, not sure what else I need to say. Maybe with Wake gone and if 2AC ever happens (which I doubt, but I can cope) it could be ok, but right now I'm really only coping because people haven't used it much... yet. I guess we'll see how people adapt.

2 Ability Clause/No Ability Clause is something I've supported for a real long time, though I wont harp on about it too long because it has always lacked enough solid support to really go through. I think it would make for some fun extra variety and help with the pressure in the teambuilder outside of offense'ing it up. 1AC can make for some cool structures still with creative Regen picks though normally they suck ass because of the all the threats in the meta or maybe I'm just ass.

 

[LordBox]

Not another double post... oh well.

In wake of the sad departure of two council members, I would like to lighten the mood with an exciting announcement! To change things up we have managed to capture a pokemon and put it on our council! With an extensive list of contributions in our C&C department, forums and strong showings in play it should no surprise that Slither Wing has been added to AAA council! Congratulations!

 

[TDLoriat]

I personally would like to campaign for a native user system by just talking about implementation and abilities likely to be restricted.
Magnet pull: you have 3 choices, all of which would rather run something else or that lose to the metal birds outright
Poison heal: I personally dislike gliscor and its shenaniganery, however, I want more diversity in physical walls and Gliscor offers something that isnt a metal bird.
Contrary: The pokemon that run contrary arent that good to begin with, and rely heavily on contrary to remain viable outside of OMs.
Huge/Pure Power: (Why are these two different abilities) Medicham and azumarill are mid overall and an increased power level means they would actively be worse.
Illusion: Its literally 2 mons that are both not that great and want other abilities.
Imposter: Its just ditto and ditto isnt good.
Good as Gold: Gholdengo is still annoying and I doubt implementing an ability I dont think it would even run would change it.
Stakeout: All of these pokemon suck.
Magic Bounce: Hatterene and Espeon aren’t that good.
Ice scales: Its just frosmoth.
Comatose: Its just Komala.
Simple: Numel is a little cup pokemon.
Triage: Its just Comfey.
Water Bubble: Araquanid is perfectly reasonable and should be allowed within 1000 feet of a school.
Fur coat: Its just one guy.

In conclusion, 90% of ability bans could probably be turned into restrictions and do absolutely nothing whatsoever.

To follow up on my restricted abilities list, I have decided to post a list of abilities that should stay banned.
Shadow tag/Arena Trap: Usable on multiple pokemon that have them and still broken.
Gorilla tactics: Physical attackers are still very good, and don’t need more multiplier fodder. No native user.
Speed Boost: Do I really need to explain it?
Moody: If it gets banned from ubers, it’s probably good.
Orichalcum pulse: Sun is good, and will be good, possibly forever. No legal native user.
Parental bond: Gen 6 players get it. No native user.
Wonder guard: It’d be funny tho. But no native user.
Unburden: Its good, widely available, and I don’t like it.
Innards out: Penalizes getting KOs. Also, no native user.
Neutralizing gas: Defeats the purpose of the tier.
Toxic Debris: This I think is the most contentious pick, and I may just be a hater, but I find the ease that Glimmora sets up hazards leads to either a necessitated poison type or heavy duty boots spam. There is only one native user, and that user wants a ground immunity desperately, but I find the ability is still overly centralizing.

Anyways, I probably am stupid and/or wrong, so correct me or don’t I just want magnet pull magnezone back.

These posts are quite terrible in retrospect, but I do agree with many of the points I brought up. I still believe that a native ability clause would make AAA a far more diverse tier than it is now. I think my second post is far better than the first, and I would like to bring up why I find my first one to be below value. Good as Gold is just dumb. I have seen its value more and more over time, and I definitely see how centralizing it would be. Magnet pull is not balanced in a tier reliant on Corviknight. Corv is essentially a minimum wage worker running 4 jobs just to survive, except instead of its own health it is the health of the tier. Illusion would be fine if it wasnt on an already decent pokemon. The fact that it forces a 50/50 between sheer force and illusion is just not fun and unlikely to be balanced. I do however still believe some native abilities would help the tier. Imposter ditto is both predictable and helpful towards balancing against setup sweepers. Magic Bounce Hatterene provides hazard control as well as a usable fairy type. Many of the other pokemon just kind of suck regardless of whether they have their native ability or not. Stakeout won’t make mabosstiff banworthy. Contrary won’t make lurantis a peak offensive threat. Abilities can be incredibly important, but they cant achieve miracles.

 

[Eggs]

I do however still believe some native abilities would help the tier. Imposter ditto is both predictable and helpful towards balancing against setup sweepers. Magic Bounce Hatterene provides hazard control as well as a usable fairy type. Many of the other pokemon just kind of suck regardless of whether they have their native ability or not. Stakeout won’t make mabosstiff banworthy. Contrary won’t make lurantis a peak offensive threat. Abilities can be incredibly important, but they cant achieve miracles.

This post I made for gen8 AAA sums up a lot of the policy perspective on why I disagree with allowing native abilities to be used, but I also have some arguments more specific to gen9 AAA.

1. AAA gives every Pokemon the same set of tools to pick from. The current status quo only has two sets of abilities: banned and useable. A Native Abilities AAA would have three sets: banned, restricted, and useable. The "grey area" between banned and restricted abilities is confusing and very hard to defend. Why should Stakeout, which was banned because it makes offensive Pokemon impossible to switch in to, be legal on Mabostiff, when we have agreed that Stakeout shouldn't be accessible to *any* Pokemon?
2. Looking at the current list of banned abilities, and the native users of those abilities, I can use my psychic powers to extrapolate what would show up in the format if we went through with allowing native abilities:

• Uncompetitive war crimes (trapping, Illusion with multiple possible abilities)
• Pokemon that were previously unviable in AAA, using OU-legal sets to meh effect (Huge Power Azumarill, Poison Heal Gliscor, Imposter Ditto, etc)
• Niche and extremely annoying effects that border on uncompetitive (Toxic Debris Glimmorra, Magic Bounce Hatterene, Moody Glalie, Neutralizing Gas Weezing, maybe Unburden Lucha idk)
• Pokemon you already wouldn't use, and still wouldn't use even if they could use their native abilities, and would probably get better use out of other, AAA-legal abilities (Araquanid, Blaziken, Mabostiff)
• Stuff that doesn't matter (banned Ubers / Pokemon that aren't in this game)

My psychic visions are telling me that this alternate version of AAA isn't very different than our current timeline. This change would add several broken things, which we'd ban immediately, a couple of mid niche options, and a whole handful of D-tier gimmicks that you should be using in standard play instead of AAA. This doesn't add anything to our format, and overall it would be a change for the worse because of the additional complexity and inconsistency within the ruleset.
3. (Bonus: my petty personal vendetta) Whenever I put Sword of Ruin on Chien-Pao, a little part of my soul dies. Almost Any Ability lets me pick from literally almost any ability, and I couldn't think of anything better than the default?

TL;DR: AAA is about gimmick communism. No Pokemon should have access to an ability restricted from other Pokemon simply because it has access in a different format

 

[UT]

In a fun twist no one saw coming, I am going to post in defense of native abilities.

First off, it would not take a major redefinition to make native abilities consistent with the tier's premise. Instead of "all Pokemon get all abilities" we could take the STAB route of "there is a magic ability tutor that can switch your ability to any non-restricted ability." (More simply, “all Pokemon gain access to almost any ability”) While I personally dislike restricted lists, we have three perma OMs (STAB / Shared Power / Godly Gift) that utilitze them at this point, so having a restricted list is not a non-starter.

Going through the abilities, it for the most part is not hard to draw the line about what should be restricted and what should be free, with at least 5-6 new mons / ability pairings that would be meta relevant:

Restricted and meta relevant

Imposter - Imposter Ditto would not be broken but would be a useful tool to check setup / hyper offense / steal more Regen

Toxic Debris - Glimmora would not be broken but would be a useful hazard lead / option

Poison Heal - Gliscor would be very relevant as longevity option / hazard setter / knock absorber. Probably not broken, its bulk does not go nearly as far here, but Breloom...probably does not matter

Magic Bounce - Hatterene and Espeon are not broken by any stretch but could see use on anti-hazard teams

Speed Boost - Maybe this goes in shitmons, but Blazekin might be useable?

Restriced but on shitmons

Comatose
Contrary
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Illusion
Pure Power
Simple
Stakeout
Triage
Water Bubble
Unburden (Sneasler is not shit, but banned)

Banned and not controversial

Shadow Tag
Arena Trap
Moody

No legal users

Parental Bond
Gorilla Tactics
Innards Out
Orichalcum Pulse
Wonder Guard

The controverial stuff

Magnet Pull - Trapping is very controversial, I would leave hard banned but you could free Zone if you want Corv to die harder

Good as Gold - Gholdengo would likely be pretty unbearable with hazard stack and imo would likely get banned; there is a policy question about does Ghold get banned, or can we just convert the restriction to a ban since we're already limiting the ability, but should not be a deal breaker

Neutralizing Gas - I do not think you realize how powerful turning off abilities in AAA is (a RegenVest slower than Weezing can literally never Regen) but if y'all want to try it free I will only cry a lot

Ditto, Gliscor, Good As Gold Gholdengo, Toxic Debris Glimmora, and the Magic Bounce guys would all be meta-relevant sets. I don't think they fundamentally change AAA in a posititive or negative way (unless you free Neutralizing Gas, which would be a huge negative), but a) I do not think restricted abilities would be out of line with current OM tiering b) I do not think that, with the exception of Good As Gold, the line is hard to draw, and c) I do think it provides a meaningful number of new sets without fundamentally altering AAA.

 

[Tsar Nikolai]

I personally am neither for or against native abilities, but there are some issues with however the tier leaders would decide to add and, if nescessary, ban them. I am going to react to many of UT's opinions to give my own take. Feel free to take my opinions with a grain of salt because I dont have a super impressive AAA resume.

1) Restricted and Meta Relevant:
Imposter - Ditto would just be a mon that I'd see in builder and make sure to plan around. Mildly annoying at times, but not crazy.
Toxic Debris - Glimmora would likely be niche at best and only really good on hazard stack. (If Good as Gold is legalized it could become a problem)
/ Poison Heal - Gliscor would be ok as a physical wall, but with Wake running around it could struggle to stay alive. Breloom might find some niche but it probably won't.
/ Magic Bounce - Hatterene and Espeon would be similar to ditto in that you'd just have to play a bit more carefully around them
/ Speed Boost - Gonna disagree with UT on this one, it should remain banned. I foresee Blaziken being too much to handle being that it could run a physical set, a mixed set, or a special set. On the special side its lacking in coverage and a boosting move, but on the physical side it has SD and tons of coverage. I could even see the mixed set viably run 252 Atk and 252 SpA, which worries me. Espathra is likely not an issue to the the prevalence of good regenvesters and the fact that Scarf R-Moon outspeeds even at +1

2) Restricted and on Shitmons:
More general here, I agree with most of UT's opinions here. Most of these guys would not be meta relevant or only have small niches, for example Azumarill might find a niche as a R-Moon check, but might need people to be running less anti-Water because of Wake. I also think that some unburden mons could be great cleaners, but not broken in any way. However, this leads into one of the issues of a native user clause for AAA - Trace/Skill Swap. If you can get Huge/Pure Power or Speed Boost/Unburden on some big physical attacker like Iron Hands its over for the opponent. Many of these native users might be unviable due to threats like this. It would be a niche counterplay, but worth noting.

3) Banned, Not Controversial, and No Legal Users:
All illegal for somereason or another and I don't disagree at all.

4) The Controversial Stuff:
Magnet Pull - Zone would force most defensive steel types e.g. Corv to run volt absorb, but I think that if Corv has help as a defender physically it shouldn't a big issue. Many of the popular steel types have an otherwise good matchup into Zone and wouldnt be very effected. However I think it might only be viable as long as manaphy is the prime special wall. If Goodra-H or Swampert were to take over that role Zone's opportunity cost would become too great for it to overcome.
Good as Gold - Gholdengo is always one of the biggest mysteries in team preview for me because it can run so many abilities with decent viability, and I don't think this changes much. With scrappy Tusk being quite viable there isn't too much to say. Corv never wants to stay in against Gholdengo and Tusk can still remove anyway. Could be kinda annoying, but would have counterplay and probably wouldnt even be the best ability for Gholdengo.
Neutralizing Gas - I think that UT overstates its significance. I think that it can beat regenerator (the best ability in the tier), but manaphy only needs 20 speed EVs (with neutral nature and 31 IVs) to always outspeed 252+ Speed Weezing. However the bigger issue is Weezing's lack of bulk and good recovery it most certainly will be susceptible to being worn down or just KO'd outright by a strong EQ. It even can be easily outpredicted with a clean double into any hard hitting mon.

All in all I think that a native abilities clause would create a few very strong sets, a few niche gimmick sets, and a lot of random unviable sets for weaker pokemons. My only other note is that of the Tier Leaders choose to focus on banning mons before banning abilities. (I attatched the quote below) This means that if something is broken with a native ability then it should get banned even if it is only good because of the ability. Tier leaders have banned abilties before, so it might not be an issue. So, just like with all good questions, my answer to if native users should be allowed in the tier is: "uh, i dont know, maybe?" Feel free to argue with my hot takes (especially Neutralizing Gas I feel like I'm missing something)

Because I'm interested I decided to look at the argument of banning Triage a bit further and decided to leave a few comments...

My understanding of tiering policy in regards to AAA is that "Ability-based formats such as Almost Any Ability (AAA) should look to ban specific users of abilities before banning the abilities themselves." which is obviously what we've been doing so far. At a certain point though, we look to ban the ability, usually when there are multiple abusers of the ability whose effect can be considered unhealthy for the metagame, referring back to the tiering guidelines "Wonder Guard is banned in Almost Any Ability because it warps the metagame to an extremely overcentralized extent, depriving teams of creativity and requiring overly demanding and specific countermeasures regardless of what the Wonder Guard Pokemon on an opposing team may be." While obviously this isn't strictly true, you can't expect to say this for some abilities like the bans of Orichalcum Pulse and Good as Gold where obviously, OPulse or GaG Luvdisc is not broken. However for both it was mostly on the burden of the ability providing the stupidity of the abusers where OPulse made basically every physical Fire-type broken and forced WBB or other specific measures and GaG on anything with longevity and able to switch into Corviknight consistently (or on a spinblocking Ghost-type for extra convenience) which put a chokehold on hazard removal forcing stuff like Scrappy Spin on many teams. There's also others highlighted cases like Aerilate, which while was obviously was the major part in why both Dragonite and Noivern were banned but ultimately is let alone given other abusers of Aerilate are mostly fine and just the qualities of Noivern and Dragonite (Boomburst and ESPeed respectively), or at least this is my interpretation.

:3

 

[Magiquaza]

/ Poison Heal - Gliscor would be ok as a physical wall, but with Wake running around it could struggle to stay alive. Breloom might find some niche but it probably won't.

A mon losing to doesn't make it struggle to stay alive. Other mons like lose to , so what? In fact, can scout 's choicelocked move with tect while healing a decent portion of HP. Even in the buffed up AAA tier, can choose a few out of setting hazards, spamming knock (knock+taunt=progress), poisoning opponents, pivoting, PP stalling, scouting, etc.

/ Speed Boost - Gonna disagree with UT on this one, it should remain banned. I foresee Blaziken being too much to handle being that it could run a physical set, a mixed set, or a special set. On the special side its lacking in coverage and a boosting move, but on the physical side it has SD and tons of coverage. I could even see the mixed set viably run 252 Atk and 252 SpA, which worries me. Espathra is likely not an issue to the the prevalence of good regenvesters and the fact that Scarf R-Moon outspeeds even at +1

I think you have it the wrong way. would be unable to keep up, being threatened by many mons and unable to break through immunities. Meanwhile, can completely blast through water regenvesters ( ) and is not at all a counter with dazzling gleam existing.

More general here, I agree with most of UT's opinions here. Most of these guys would not be meta relevant or only have small niches, for example Azumarill might find a niche as a R-Moon check, but might need people to be running less anti-Water because of Wake. I also think that some unburden mons could be great cleaners, but not broken in any way. However, this leads into one of the issues of a native user clause for AAA - Trace/Skill Swap. If you can get Huge/Pure Power or Speed Boost/Unburden on some big physical attacker like Iron Hands its over for the opponent. Many of these native users might be unviable due to threats like this. It would be a niche counterplay, but worth noting.

is not a check, it takes massive damage despite the resist and has no real recovery. Unburden mons would be outclassed by current physical breakers such as , , etc. and unable to do much to fluffy . Trace/skill swap are irrelevant. The opportunity cost of running trace on a mon just to absorb a strong ability is massive. Wasting a turn and move slot with skill swap is even worse. The existence of trace would not at all make a restricted ability mon immediately unviable.

Magnet Pull - Zone would force most defensive steel types e.g. Corv to run volt absorb, but I think that if Corv has help as a defender physically it shouldn't a big issue. Many of the popular steel types have an otherwise good matchup into Zone and wouldnt be very effected. However I think it might only be viable as long as manaphy is the prime special wall. If Goodra-H or Swampert were to take over that role Zone's opportunity cost would become too great for it to overcome.
Good as Gold - Gholdengo is always one of the biggest mysteries in team preview for me because it can run so many abilities with decent viability, and I don't think this changes much. With scrappy Tusk being quite viable there isn't too much to say. Corv never wants to stay in against Gholdengo and Tusk can still remove anyway. Could be kinda annoying, but would have counterplay and probably wouldnt even be the best ability for Gholdengo.
Neutralizing Gas - I think that UT overstates its significance. I think that it can beat regenerator (the best ability in the tier), but manaphy only needs 20 speed EVs (with neutral nature and 31 IVs) to always outspeed 252+ Speed Weezing. However the bigger issue is Weezing's lack of bulk and good recovery it most certainly will be susceptible to being worn down or just KO'd outright by a strong EQ. It even can be easily outpredicted with a clean double into any hard hitting mon.

I disagree with all of these.
For , "Forcing most defensive steel types to run volt absorb" is a massive deal. is always around the top usage spot and for a good reason, it is incredibly important in many teams due to its ability to stop the absurdly strong physical attackers of the tier.
" However I think it might only be viable as long as manaphy is the prime special wall. If Goodra-H or Swampert were to take over that role Zone's opportunity cost would become too great for it to overcome." Wait what? Firstly, would still be viable even if didn't exist due to . Secondly, mons don't just magically take over roles, so what you're saying is that it would remove regenvest mana from the meta. Finally, doesn't even have a clean matchup into due to IDBP or just unboosted BP, trapping and removing the hoodra.

For , scrappy is not an argument for it. You shouldn't be forced to run a specific mon with a specific ability just to remove hazards. Corv never wants to stay in against ghold? The whole point is that you switch ghold into a defog to block it. "Would have counterplay?" Well, yeah, the only counterplay is scrappy which you shouldn't be forced to run. The only other things that can remove the hazards are even more niche scrappy spinners or a moldy defogger, which, well, would be dumb for obvious reasons.

For , you are definitely unaware of the sheer impact that blocking regen has. running speed EVs doesn't make it that much less tanky, but it naturally wants to run minimum speed to get slow pivots. You would also need to put a negative nature into something other than speed, and it uses both phys/spec attacks and doesn't want its defenses lowered. has respectable physical bulk, a decent typing, and access to will-o-wisp and pain split to heal on physical attackers. Since there isn't a special fluffy (and no ice scales rn), teams often lean on a regenvester to absorb special hits in general. Having immunity abilities only would lead to wide-open weaknesses in the builder, and regenvests would be absolutely crippled by neutgas.


Anyway, my general thoughts are that adding restricteds shouldn't involve worrying about balance, because anything absurd can be banned. If it's worth it to make AAA more like other OMs, then I would say it's a good idea.

 

[OceanVista]

I cooked up this team and I would like thoughts on what I can do to improve it
https://pokepast.es/f4b7a5e17cf78875

 

[Magiquaza]

I cooked up this team and I would like thoughts on what I can do to improve it
https://pokepast.es/f4b7a5e17cf78875

The wake set is weird, it usually runs a choice item rather than LO and you don't need hydro steam, you should be running weather ball. You also don't want hurricane. I'd do specs or scarf with weather ball, meteor, knock, and flip turn.

Zamazenta with HDB SoR is also an awkward set, you could run CB with SoR or HDB with some sort of IDBP... but I don't play zama much so if it works it works ig.

Not sure why ur running Vessel on corv, it's a physical tank. Fluffy is my personal fave, intimidate is good too and wbb/volt absorb/delta are decent but I'd just do fluffy for your team.

Anyway your team is weak to terrakion and zapdos (yes, treads has no recovery so zap can eventually beat it even without weather ball.) Stamina CM users also could be a threat.

 

[Isaiah]

Walking Wake is banned now <https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-aaa-12-walking-wake.3743850/post-10126469>

 

[OceanVista]

The wake set is weird, it usually runs a choice item rather than LO and you don't need hydro steam, you should be running weather ball. You also don't want hurricane. I'd do specs or scarf with weather ball, meteor, knock, and flip turn.

Zamazenta with HDB SoR is also an awkward set, you could run CB with SoR or HDB with some sort of IDBP... but I don't play zama much so if it works it works ig.

Not sure why ur running Vessel on corv, it's a physical tank. Fluffy is my personal fave, intimidate is good too and wbb/volt absorb/delta are decent but I'd just do fluffy for your team.

Anyway your team is weak to terrakion and zapdos (yes, treads has no recovery so zap can eventually beat it even without weather ball.) Stamina CM users also could be a threat.

Thank you! I will defiantly implement these suggestions.

 

[Gimmicky]

Walking Wake is banned now, that's pretty cool. Even though I didn't get reqs due to a tight schedule, I'm pretty happy to see it gone. Walking Wake was incredibly oppressive both in the builder and on the field, and teams struggled to consistently check it. With Walking Wake gone, the tier's problem with special attackers is alleviated, right? The most threatening one in the tier is gone, so now the lack of special defensive amplification is way more manageable, right?


Let's talk about the Alien in the room.

Deoxys-S is a really dumb mon. Deoxys-S warps build around itself in a way similar to Walking Wake, not being impossible to play around or build around but putting so much pressure on defensive cores, even those built with it in mind, that granting it even one or two free turns can signal the end of a game. Deoxys's checks are good Pokemon in their own right, of course. Manaphy and Primarina can fare well versus knockless AoA sets, Roaring Moon and Heatran can check choice-locked or Fighting moveless sets, and Scream Tail on paper naturally walls almost anything Deoxys can throw at it. The issue isn't checking it in theory, the issue is that in practice, Deoxys-S overwhelms these checks with such consistency that it forces you to either stack multiple of them or consistently get 50/50s right without fail.

Deoxys has a combination of power, speed, and versatility that makes it impossible to hard counter in the builder and incredibly difficult to deal with on the field. The best gameplan that some of the best teams in the meta have against Deoxys-S is, "get turns right and pray it isn't Nasty Plot". RegenVest users like Manaphy and Primarina get knocked on the switch-in then nuked by either Specs Expanding Force or SFLO Thunderbolt later in the game. Steel- and Dark-types like Empoleon, Roaring Moon, and Kingambit all get wiped off the face of the earth by either Low Kick (entirely better than Superpower btw) or Focus Blast and, if by some miracle they live, get murked by any of the many midground moves Deo-S can click versus low HP targets. Scream Tail, Gholdengo, and Deoxys-Defense, even as bulky resists, all immensely fear Expanding Force to the point that three layers of Spikes (which Deoxys-S also gets!) put them into 2HKO range of Specs EForce, let alone its coverage options it can spec specifically for these. Even if you delve into more niche options like Alolan Muk who's entire purpose is to counter Deoxys, Deoxys-S can often still worm past them with the combination of Knock Off, Fighting coverage-- oh yeah, and every one of its teammates! Deoxys-S can handle so much of the tier with such limited support that anything one set can't handle, you're almost guaranteed to have a teammate that can!

Now, Deoxys-S is not perfect. Sure, on paper, it beats everything, but in practice it only beats most things! The real broken set that you're realistically seeing on most teams, mixed Psychic Surge, has some power issues when it's clicking coverage moves and it can be pivoted around depending on the fourth moveslot. Sheer Force sets are often STABless and fail to reach the 2hkos they want to without hazards, and sets that run hazards (or utility like Taunt, Psychic Noise, and Trick) themselves are giving up on the crucial coverage options that make it so dangerous in the first place. Deoxys-S isn't perfect, but that doesn't change that there is no consistent answers to Deoxys-S in the tier that aren't leaving themselves completely helpless against threats like Scream Tail, Zapdos, or even Iron Moth.

It is too difficult to effectively check Deoxys-S and it's bag of tricks right now. Either a more firm answer to it needs to enter the meta or, far preferably, action should be considered on Deoxys-Speed.

and before anyone says it...

No, Deoxys-S countering Dragonite / other more gimmicky -ateSpeeders is not reason enough to keep it in the tier. Broken checking Broken is not excuse to keep something in the tier. Deoxys-S does provide a fair bit of utility against offense despite its poor bulk, and while this is a valuable trait that can be positive, it is absolutely not enough to ignore the chokehold it has on the tier. If Dragonite ends up being broken with Deoxys-S banned (which isn't too unlikely), then the solution is to ban Dragonite as well, not to keep both of them in the tier.

 

[Hera]

Walking Wake is banned now, that's pretty cool. Even though I didn't get reqs due to a tight schedule, I'm pretty happy to see it gone. Walking Wake was incredibly oppressive both in the builder and on the field, and teams struggled to consistently check it. With Walking Wake gone, the tier's problem with special attackers is alleviated, right? The most threatening one in the tier is gone, so now the lack of special defensive amplification is way more manageable, right?


Let's talk about the Alien in the room.

Deoxys-S is a really dumb mon. Deoxys-S warps build around itself in a way similar to Walking Wake, not being impossible to play around or build around but putting so much pressure on defensive cores, even those built with it in mind, that granting it even one or two free turns can signal the end of a game. Deoxys's checks are good Pokemon in their own right, of course. Manaphy and Primarina can fare well versus knockless AoA sets, Roaring Moon and Heatran can check choice-locked or Fighting moveless sets, and Scream Tail on paper naturally walls almost anything Deoxys can throw at it. The issue isn't checking it in theory, the issue is that in practice, Deoxys-S overwhelms these checks with such consistency that it forces you to either stack multiple of them or consistently get 50/50s right without fail.

Deoxys has a combination of power, speed, and versatility that makes it impossible to hard counter in the builder and incredibly difficult to deal with on the field. The best gameplan that some of the best teams in the meta have against Deoxys-S is, "get turns right and pray it isn't Nasty Plot". RegenVest users like Manaphy and Primarina get knocked on the switch-in then nuked by either Specs Expanding Force or SFLO Thunderbolt later in the game. Steel- and Dark-types like Empoleon, Roaring Moon, and Kingambit all get wiped off the face of the earth by either Low Kick (entirely better than Superpower btw) or Focus Blast and, if by some miracle they live, get murked by any of the many midground moves Deo-S can click versus low HP targets. Scream Tail, Gholdengo, and Deoxys-Defense, even as bulky resists, all immensely fear Expanding Force to the point that three layers of Spikes (which Deoxys-S also gets!) put them into 2HKO range of Specs EForce, let alone its coverage options it can spec specifically for these. Even if you delve into more niche options like Alolan Muk who's entire purpose is to counter Deoxys, Deoxys-S can often still worm past them with the combination of Knock Off, Fighting coverage-- oh yeah, and every one of its teammates! Deoxys-S can handle so much of the tier with such limited support that anything one set can't handle, you're almost guaranteed to have a teammate that can!

Now, Deoxys-S is not perfect. Sure, on paper, it beats everything, but in practice it only beats most things! The real broken set that you're realistically seeing on most teams, mixed Psychic Surge, has some power issues when it's clicking coverage moves and it can be pivoted around depending on the fourth moveslot. Sheer Force sets are often STABless and fail to reach the 2hkos they want to without hazards, and sets that run hazards (or utility like Taunt, Psychic Noise, and Trick) themselves are giving up on the crucial coverage options that make it so dangerous in the first place. Deoxys-S isn't perfect, but that doesn't change that there is no consistent answers to Deoxys-S in the tier that aren't leaving themselves completely helpless against threats like Scream Tail, Zapdos, or even Iron Moth.

It is too difficult to effectively check Deoxys-S and it's bag of tricks right now. Either a more firm answer to it needs to enter the meta or, far preferably, action should be considered on Deoxys-Speed.

and before anyone says it...

No, Deoxys-S countering Dragonite / other more gimmicky -ateSpeeders is not reason enough to keep it in the tier. Broken checking Broken is not excuse to keep something in the tier. Deoxys-S does provide a fair bit of utility against offense despite its poor bulk, and while this is a valuable trait that can be positive, it is absolutely not enough to ignore the chokehold it has on the tier. If Dragonite ends up being broken with Deoxys-S banned (which isn't too unlikely), then the solution is to ban Dragonite as well, not to keep both of them in the tier.

can we please stop trying to ban every special attacker that's even a slight bit better than the others? the wake ban was misguided imo and there were a ton of issues with the mon that kept it from being broken either in builder or in play (needing to get turns right, struggling against any competent core, concessions in builder you had to make by using a breaker that's slower than 110), but it hasn't even been 3 days since its ban and already you're calling for action on a mon because it could be one of a bunch of sets that all have overlapping counters or reveal themselves on entry/after clicking a move? this isn't to say deo-s is bad; it's a great mid-game breaker that has to be respected in builder, and being the second fastest unboosted mon in the tier makes it more difficult to counter offensively than other mons, but deo-s doesn't suddenly have 6 moveslots and 2 abilities to work with here. if deo-s is so powerful in practice, then where's the evidence that shows this? are there any replays that show how effective deo-s is at dismantling good teams given a few turns? there are inconsistent answers on paper, but this also goes for any mildly fast special breaker with a strong stab and good coverage/knock, like gar, thundy, or azzy, who can theoretically beat basically everything with knock + the right coverage + enough turns (this is ignoring how huge of a commitment knock is on choiced breaker, people seem to think it's free but all you need to do is look at games like this or talk to anyone who's ever knocked a corvid or tusk that stayed in to realize that it's not). the only things that seem to separate deo-s from the others is a better speed tier and low kick, which imo isn't enough to make it banworthy.

if anything, i'd argue breakers like deo-s and the banned wake are/were healthy additions to the meta and increased the amount of good play in games. deo-s can win vs a lot of teams, but that means clicking the right moves at the right time and generally outplaying your opponent, which isn't any different from your standard long-term win condition. otherwise, you're rightfully punished for using a frail mon with no bulk, no resistances, and no good entry points barring doubles and pivots (at least wake had fire immunity, 4x water resist, and a steel resist). a mon like deo-s has a clear opportunity cost in builder that you have to manage and play correctly in order to win, you can't just click buttons and hope for the best. deo-s is your standard high-risk/high-reward breaker, and at a certain point it's less of deo-s being broken and more of you just being outplayed (also lots of people still rely on their regenvest to handle every special attacker and complain when they get outplayed by anything with knock, but that's a separate issue). i'd also like to point out that ompl just started and the wake ban was just implemented on ladder, so a majority of people haven't even played a wakeless meta to properly gauge deo-s.

overall, i don't think deo-s is anywhere near broken and i think we as a community need to be less banhappy, at least so early into a new meta. imo the tier's fine the way it is and if any action should be taken, it should wait until we have actual evidence of deo-s' effectiveness in a post-wake meta as provided by ompl replays and not because we're suddenly worried about 6 move 2 ability 2 item deo-s when they have 3 layers of spikes up.

 

[Gimmicky]

deo-s is so powerful in practice, then where's the evidence that shows this? are there any replays that show how effective deo-s is at dismantling good teams given a few turns?

There are, actually, and I'm happy you asked! These replays are both from week 1 of OMPL, when Wake was still around, but they illustrate the point just as well (and in fact, I've been calling for action against Deo-S since before Wake was even gone, so they don't hamper what I'm saying at all)

Clas VS QT (Bo3)

When Deoxys first enters the field on turn 18, QT's team has already taken a bit of damage from Wake, but realistically this could be any special attacker. A clever double switch immediately grants Deoxys a kill against Ceruledge, who otherwise was one of QTs best ways of making progress vs Ting-Lu (assuming CC last) and Pecharunt as well as QTs best answer to Close Combat Zamazenta. This kill isn't too bad on its own, as any special attacker can reasonably kill a weakened Ceruledge, but it does immediately give teammates like Zamazenta an opening to start weakening the opposing team.

Where this replay really shows Deoxys-S's game-warping ability begins on turn 25. Zamazenta, using the opening from Deoxys's removal of Ceruledge, has succesfully done its job of weakening Manaphy and eliminating Dragonite, removing QTs primary defensive and offensive answer to MGLO Deoxys. An admittedly very lucky Thunderbolt paralysis on Roaring Moon suddenly grants Deoxys a free kill with Low Kick, and from there it's over. With just one free turn against Roaring Moon that ultimately it provided for itself, QT no longer had any way to bet Deoxys long-term. From there, with Walking Wake and a cheeky Prankster Destiny Bond, the game was over.

There is no special attacker that could fully recreate what Deoxys did this game. Deoxys-S cast a shadow over this game from the moment the teams were revealed, and even without the lucky paralysis, it is absolutely not hard to see this game coming to a similar conclusion with the help of Wake Knock Off, Empoleon/Pecharunt pivoting, Ting-Lu hazards, etc. The paralysis won this game, but it only won this game because Deoxys got a free turn.


Glalie VS MZ

Oh boy, two Deoxyses! And on turn 4, after the Manaphies exchanged Knock Offs and U-Turns, Glalie already found a free kill with their own Deoxys! After this, MZ gets up to some Deoxys shenanigans of their own, including a nasty 95% on Glalie's most consistent answer to Gholdengo, but on turn 22, Glalie manages to claim another free kill with Deoxys (and no, the crit Psychic didn't matter, Life Orb Thunderbolt cleanly 2HKOed after Leftovers and Rocks) and from there, the game was basically over. Even MZs own Deoxys didn't save him, as Glalie successfully managed to pivot around it. The combination of Deoxys + Roaring Moon, after getting just two! free turns managed to completely disassemble MZ's team here.

So why did Glalie win, and why didn't MZ, even though both of them brought Deoxys?

Because Glalie didn't let Deoxys get free turns. When MZ Nasty Plotted, Glalie successfully forced it out with a careful switch to Moon, and when Deoxys was firing off attacks, Glalie got all of his 50/50s correct. The entire dynamic of this game from both sides came down to winning the 50/50 against Deoxys, often multiple times in a row, and the user who got their moves wrong lost. No other special attackers in the tier have the combination of coverage, power, and Speed to make themselves quite as important to the point where the entire game is warped around them-- except, funny enough, Walking Wake, which we just banned!

No AAA games have been played so far this week, but when they do happen and Deoxys-S inevitably dominates even more (just with a partner like Latios instead of Wake), I'll be happy to analyze those as well!

i think we as a community need to be less banhappy, at least so early into a new meta. imo the tier's fine the way it is and if any action should be taken, it should wait until we have actual evidence of deo-s' effectiveness in a post-wake meta as provided by ompl replays and not because we're suddenly worried about 6 move 2 ability 2 item deo-s when they have 3 layers of spikes up.

I'm not calling for an immediate ban FWIW, and I think it's quite representative of how well you read my post that that's the conclusion you jumped to. My post was very clearly about considering action against a threat that's proven itself to be centralizing and hard to check even in a Walking Wake meta, not taking immediate action the moment Wake is banned simply because we can. I implore you to read your fellow users posts over a second time before making a reply accusing them of being ban-happy and mocking their ideas, I guarantee you'll have more engaging discussion that way ^^

 

[Hera]

Clas VS QT (Bo3)

Glalie VS MZ

neither of the replays show what i believe you were intending to portray as deo-s being broken; in fact, they show examples of deo-s being balanced. the former replay would not have changed significantly if you inserted, say, a gar in the place of deo-s (you even admit that the game wouldn't have been the same without the tbolt para but then backtrack and say "There is no special attacker that could fully recreate what Deoxys did this game", when that's clearly not the case). you click similar moves with similar outcomes, and assuming you hit the fblast at the end after getting the tbolt para, qt loses either way. if anything, i think doing a smart double, getting a predict right, and being rewarded with a kill is your standard good play. tbolt para sucks but mons will be mons, doesn't mean deo-s is broken cause of it. this also shows off the potential brokeness of sor boots zama more than deo-s too; great speed tier, coverage for midgrounds, doesn't have to worry about predicting that much, and is easily supported by most special attackers (not saying it's 100% broken, would need more evidence + using it myself).

the latter replay is even harsher for deo-s. mana dittos when you're faster always sucks but again, that could've been any special attacker getting the kill on mana there, not to mention that glalie correctly predicted that mz's mana would stay in and capitalized on it. it's not a "free kill" when you predict what your opponent's going to do. glalie managing to successfully pivot around mz's deo-s is a another point against it; mz started clicking what was in front of him and got punished for it, which glalie was able to take advantage of with good play (you can tell he was in mz's head cause mz clicked psychic right in front of moon when scarf u-turn would have cleanly killed). one player simply played better than the other, doesn't mean deo-s is broken cause of it.

i would also like to point out that these teams had to prep with wake in mind, which skewed teambuilding a sizeable amount. i would imagine that with wake gone, more builds would pop up that can deal with deo-s more effectively, and i would like to see if deo-s can maintain its momentum over the next few weeks. i look forward to your analysis on these replays.

I'm not calling for an immediate ban FWIW, and I think it's quite representative of how well you read my post that that's the conclusion you jumped to. My post was very clearly about considering action against a threat that's proven itself to be centralizing and hard to check even in a Walking Wake meta, not taking immediate action the moment Wake is banned simply because we can. I implore you to read your fellow users posts over a second time before making a reply accusing them of being ban-happy and mocking their ideas, I guarantee you'll have more engaging discussion that way ^^

i never mentioned that you wanted it quickbanned, and simply tried to touch upon a sentiment i've seen from other members of the community (the ban-happy sentiment, i have seen multiple people call for various special attackers to be banned). but it was clear to me and most people reading your post that you wanted deo-s banned. i would guess that, if a suspect test were to happen, you would vote ban. you also admit that you've been calling for action against deo-s since before wake ban, and in your discord posts, you call it broken. given this information, i'm not entirely sure what other conclusion to draw other than that you want deo-s banned.

logs of gimmicky calling deo-s broken

i can provide more context if asked, i'm just tired and wanna go to bed so i took these very quickly

as for the mocking of your ideas, i believe you mean the line where i said "...and if any action should be taken, it should wait until we have actual evidence of deo-s' effectiveness in a post-wake meta as provided by ompl replays and not because we're suddenly worried about 6 move 2 ability 2 item deo-s when they have 3 layers of spikes up", but i wrote this because i think that this type of thinking is flawed and is a shared sentiment among other om players, so i wanted to point it out. simply having the option to run a bunch of sets doesn't make a mon broken, it's the lack of opprotunity cost that comes with it that makes a mon broken. this is why we banned genesect in gen 8 but not koko, both of these mons had a ton of sets but genesect had a significantly lower opprotunity cost for running something like ngsg over sflo sg or tinted sg or etc since it covered everything it wanted to in 3 slots, vs koko that actively had to give up pivoting potential if it wanted to run something like double dance or having to choose between u-turn/taunt/nature/roost/gknot on pixi sets. when you posted hypothetical scenarios like dark-types dying to low kick and regenvests dying to specs eforce or sflo tbolt in the same breath and mentioned how spdef psychics can die after 3 layers of spikes (i'm gonna be frank here, please never use 3 layers of spikes as an argument for a mon's brokeness, it's extremely unrealistic), that is what i got from it. if this isn't what you intended, then i sincerely apologize for this, but even if you did, you still haven't proven imo that the opprotunity cost of deo-s' different sets is negligible enough to make it banworthy.