Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Heatranator]

ok but consider: only legal source of sleep

That's a benefit to it, but 128/128 is really threatening to a lot of teams. If there main source of speed control is Darkrai or weavile, they are screwed. They are forced to use something like valiant earlier on, which you can use to your advantage. Plus, knock is better than crunch, so it's better at dealing with ghold/dragapult. The sleep thing is just the cherry on top, it means something like dozo (who is 4hit KO'd) has to be careful. Meloetta is niche, but if played well, can decimate some teams such as stall. Though mixed meloetta is much better.

 

[YubelVT]

That's a benefit to it, but 128/128 is really threatening to a lot of teams. If there main source of speed control is Darkrai or weavile, they are screwed. They are forced to use something like valiant earlier on, which you can use to your advantage. Plus, knock is better than crunch, so it's better at dealing with ghold/dragapult. The sleep thing is just the cherry on top, it means something like dozo (who is 4hit KO'd) has to be careful. Meloetta is niche, but if played well, can decimate some teams such as stall. Though mixed meloetta is much better.

*reverend voice* Is meloetta secretly top 1 in SV OU?

 

[waffle04]

Meloetta-P would be amazing in OU because of its speed tier + being stronger than 4a zama but being forced to be the other form until clicking relic song is way to big of a detriment for it to be viable right now, especially given that relic song becomes a dead slot after transforming and its gambit bait before hand. If it worked like paladin I think it may have a niche but unfortunately that's not a case.

 

[serotine]

My main argument was that hazards are not a problem in tier and that counterplay to it is not limited, hence why I posted the guide. Most teams in SV OU are built to keep hazards out or minimize the effects of hazards. This isn’t even unique to Gen 9. There have been several teams from Gen 3 to Gen 6 simply don’t have removal, yet find success, and its not just HO.

Balance structures are doing great rn, better than ever. Players have remembered that Tusk is a really consistent form of hazard control and great mon in general, they started branching out from the standard Boots Spam Balances to more diverse Balance teams. Again, Corv as a Defogger is fine, as long as you pair it with good breakers that exploit Ghold it should be fine.

Also I want to state that I didn’t mean that hazards were the only ways of dealing with breakers like Wogre and Kyu, but hazards are often the best ways at dealing with them for Balance. Its been like that since the inception of hazards. A hazard clause would unironically nerf fat structures for no good reason because they often bank on chip damage to make progress, especially Stall.

SV OU is not an HO-infested meta like how GSC isn’t all Stall, but if you play overly passive, you’re going to play punish. Balancing safe and aggressive plays is important. Spikes incentivizes this, and I don’t see a problem with that.

Thank you for taking the time to explain and explore, I appreciate your perspective on this and I’ll sit on it some more while and take some more time to play. I wasn’t personally struggling, and apologize for reading your message as patronizing when the intention is to inform others as well. This forum has a nasty habit of being overly critical or just attacking one another, I used that to justify my reaction and that wasn’t correct. Thanks again!

 

[RS25802580]

Yeah I found mola makes like negative progress and Ogerpon doesn’t do enough damage against defensive Garg. My problem is typically that Hoopa works but gets chipped very easily by salt cure+hazards.

It doesn’t matter how bulky Garg is as long as you encore it into recover/curse. Then you spam free SDs on your Ogerpon and win.

Garg punishes teams that are too passive, particularly fat balance teams lacking Clef. The way to get around it is to pressure it offensively. Force it to use recover. Then bring in your encore user and profit.

 

[Heatranator]

It doesn’t matter how bulky Garg is as long as you encore it into recover/curse. Then you spam free SDs on your Ogerpon and win.

Garg punishes teams that are too passive, particularly fat balance teams lacking Clef. The way to get around it is to pressure it offensively. Force it to use recover. Then bring in your encore user and profit.

The specific ogerpon doesn't have sd, so you just have to pivot or stay in and chip it.
But other than that, you are right.

 

[Finchinator]

There are no plans to drop any Ubers in the immediate future. I gave Lily the ok to post a thread this Summer after WCoP on the topic if there is enough internal traction by then.

That is not an invitation to discuss it here and there is no reason to dig deeper at this time. Some things are possible in the future for sure, but it's a discussion for another day, especially with the Volcarona-Tera Blast discussion concluding with a Volcarona suspect. That will be up when I am done writing.

 

[RS25802580]

There are no plans to drop any Ubers in the immediate future. I gave Lily the ok to post a thread this Summer after WCoP on the topic if there is enough internal traction by then.

That is not an invitation to discuss it here and there is no reason to dig deeper at this time. Some things are possible in the future for sure, but it's a discussion for another day, especially with the Volcarona-Tera Blast discussion concluding with a Volcarona suspect. That will be up when I am done writing.

Personally I find the uber discussion to be annoying. But to be fair, wasn’t there a twitter post about ubers being discussed by the OU council? The twitter drops without context are what incite the discussion flare ups here. It’s like some kind of teaser trailer being dropped with no elaboration. People are going to talk about it when it’s presented that way. But regardless, thanks for this latest post. I’m glad the useless uber drop convo is being nipped in the bud now.

 

[Finchinator]

Personally I find the uber discussion to be annoying. But to be fair, wasn’t there a twitter post about ubers being discussed by the OU council? I feel like the contextless twitter drop is just inciting that discussion flare up here. It’s like some kind of teaser trailer being dropped with no elaboration. People are going to talk about it when it’s presented the way it is on twitter. But regardless, thanks for this latest post. I’m glad the useless uber drop convo is being nipped in the bud now.

I’m sorry, but are you trying to imply I can’t use my own, personal Twitter account to post memes and have fun because I lead a tier on a Pokemon forum? Like what the hell are we doing to reach a point where that is the implication?

Let’s be honest here: we tease tiering things sometimes for the fun of it and sometimes to raise excitement. That doesn’t suddenly allow people to break rules cited by numerous moderators, especially when they’re rehashed. If discussion is annoying, don’t just mindlessly point your fingers at leadership when that’s not the root of the issue. I have repeatedly said this isn’t the place for that discussion and I don’t post the Tweet here either.

 

[Anchor9]

Has anyone tried out Scarf Rotom-W with Foul Play over Will-O-Wisp? Kinda comes in and wrecks the Ogerpons at +2 and is generally safer than trying to pull off a Will-O-Wisp.

I think Foul Play has plenty of room for exploration because of the boosting nature of this Meta. From experience in different Metas, even Foul Play resistances take huge damage if the opponent has boosted enough.

 

[RS25802580]

I’m sorry, but are you trying to imply I can’t use my own, personal Twitter account to post memes and have fun because I lead a tier on a Pokemon forum? Like what the hell are we doing to reach a point where that is the implication?

Let’s be honest here: we tease tiering things sometimes for the fun of it and sometimes to raise excitement. That doesn’t suddenly allow people to break rules cited by numerous moderators, especially when they’re rehashed. If discussion is annoying, don’t just mindlessly point your fingers at leadership when that’s not the root of the issue. I have repeatedly said this isn’t the place for that discussion and I don’t post the Tweet here either.

Who am I to tell you what you can and can’t do? As a random user of the forums that you run I’m just trying to provide some feedback. You posted a meme (?) (I’m assuming that what the post was but it’s still not clear to me) that teased possible Uber drops, so people started discussing it here. You’re the head of OU so people listen to what you say and sometimes it’s not totally clear what’s serious and what’s not. You can scroll back through the last few pages and see that the general consensus was uncertainty about whether it was a meme or not. Obviously that’s gonna spark discussion when it’s on such an exciting topic. I understand that discussion is against the rules and I wish it was nipped in the bud sooner rather than allowing the uncertainty to fester for as long as it did.

I hope you don’t stop posting memes, they’re cool and funny. Again, just trying to say what I see here and give my two cents as your average forum user.

Thanks again.

 

[Finchinator]

Who am I to tell you what you can and can’t do? As a random user of the forums that you run I’m just trying to provide some feedback. You posted a meme (?) (I’m assuming that what the post was but it’s still not clear to me) that teased possible Uber drops, so people started discussing it here. You’re the head of OU so people listen to what you say and sometimes it’s not totally clear what’s serious and what’s not. You can scroll back through the last few pages and see that the general consensus was uncertainty about whether it was a meme or not. Obviously that’s gonna spark discussion when it’s on such an exciting topic. I understand that discussion is against the rules and I wish it was nipped in the bud sooner rather than allowing the uncertainty to fester for as long as it did. Again, just trying to say what I see here and give my two cents as your average forum user. Thanks again.

I do not think it is appropriate to use the OU metagame discussion thread as a medium to give someone feedback on how people should use their personal social media accounts -- that is my point.

Just because I say X on discord or post Y on Twitter does not openly invite people to discuss things here if they are prohibited by moderation and the rules. Plenty of times it is fine of course and we have seen this, but I should not have to water down everything I say everywhere because people on a forum cannot follow simple rules -- the onus shifts to being on them.

I get where you are coming from, but I do not think I am the person that should be the "target" here -- I would love to discuss this more with you in PMs if you have concerns though.

 

[Heatranator]

Has anyone tried out Scarf Rotom-W with Foul Play over Will-O-Wisp? Kinda comes in and wrecks the Ogerpons at +2 and is generally safer than trying to pull off a Will-O-Wisp.

I think Foul Play has plenty of room for exploration because of the boosting nature of this Meta. From experience in different Metas, even Foul Play resistances take huge damage if the opponent has boosted enough.

While it is a good move, mons that get it want to use other dark type moves, or have four moves they would rather want. The only OU mon that might consider it is glowking, which usually wants to run other moves. If we go to UU, apart from mandibuzz (which commonly uses it) and rotom-w, you maybe have pecharunt or sinistcha.
It is a really good move, but knock off is usually better, but I would like to be proven wrong.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I’m sorry, but are you trying to imply I can’t use my own, personal Twitter account to post memes and have fun because I lead a tier on a Pokemon forum? Like what the hell are we doing to reach a point where that is the implication?

Let’s be honest here: we tease tiering things sometimes for the fun of it and sometimes to raise excitement. That doesn’t suddenly allow people to break rules cited by numerous moderators, especially when they’re rehashed. If discussion is annoying, don’t just mindlessly point your fingers at leadership when that’s not the root of the issue. I have repeatedly said this isn’t the place for that discussion and I don’t post the Tweet here either.

i know you didn't intend for people to interpret your tweet as an invitation for uber-dropping discussions, but think about the types of people who are in this discussion thread:

• neurodivergent people who have trouble detecting satire through text
• neurotypical people who have trouble detecting satire through text because it's fucking hard either way
• armchair-council sweatlords who are fundamentally incapable of not taking competitive pokemon way too seriously
• parasocial weirdos who hang onto every word emitted by a council member
• self-styled resistance fighters who hate the council and willfully misinterpret their every word as having the worst meaning possible
• shitposters who pretend to hate the council and jokingly misinterpret their every word as having the worst meaning possible
• easily confused folks who don't understand that the above people are joking
• literal children who genuinely want ubers to drop

unfortunately, any mention of the topic can trigger the discussion, and this was a mention from the highest authority figure in the tier, presented in an ostensibly serious manner. it doesn't even matter to these types of people that you said it on another platform, all they care about is that you said it. much like religion and politics, it's a guaranteed argument-starter regardless of whether or not there are rules against it. the best way to interact with this topic is to never mention it in any capacity and have some sort of blacklist or filter in place to prevent it from ever accidentally coming up

 

[Finchinator]

i know you didn't intend for people to interpret your tweet as an invitation for uber-dropping discussions, but think about the types of people who are in this discussion thread:

• neurodivergent people who have trouble detecting satire through text
• neurotypical people who have trouble detecting satire through text because it's fucking hard either way
• armchair-council sweatlords who are fundamentally incapable of not taking competitive pokemon way too seriously
• parasocial weirdos who hang onto every word emitted by a council member
• self-styled resistance fighters who hate the council and willfully misinterpret their every word as having the worst meaning possible
• shitposters who pretend to hate the council and jokingly misinterpret their every word as having the worst meaning possible
• easily confused folks who don't understand that the above people are joking
• literal children who genuinely want ubers to drop

unfortunately, any mention of the topic can trigger the discussion, and this was a mention from the highest authority figure in the tier, presented in an ostensibly serious manner. much like religion and politics, it's a guaranteed argument-starter regardless of whether or not there are rules against it. the best way to interact with this topic is to never mention it in any capacity and have some sort of blacklist or filter in place to prevent it from ever accidentally coming up

you missed the point man. i am not going to filter what i say on other platforms, which are not tied to smogon or official in any capacity. i am me, my own person with my own following. i have no obligation to cater to any forum-based agenda. this is plain and simple. those are my rights as an individual.

if people want to react whatever way they want to them, they can do so, but that does not suddenly lift the forum rules. if you don't get that, then that's on you, not on me.

 

[RS25802580]

I do not think it is appropriate to use the OU metagame discussion thread as a medium to give someone feedback on how people should use their personal social media accounts -- that is my point.

Just because I say X on discord or post Y on Twitter does not openly invite people to discuss things here if they are prohibited by moderation and the rules. Plenty of times it is fine of course and we have seen this, but I should not have to water down everything I say everywhere because people on a forum cannot follow simple rules -- the onus shifts to being on them.

I get where you are coming from, but I do not think I am the person that should be the "target" here -- I would love to discuss this more with you in PMs if you have concerns though.

Thanks—that’s a nuanced response and I appreciate it. You do great work as a forum head here that is appreciated by many people. I don’t think I have any concerns but I’ll let you know if something comes up.

 

[Bold School]

I gotta be blunt. I don't know why people would or should completely ignore what Finch says on here just to hang onto something he tweeted. He wasn't exactly unclear. At this point, it seems to me like it was just certain folks cherry picking what words of his they wanted to pay attention to or outright ignoring him. Past the first few posts, this sort of "misunderstanding" was people going out of their way for it.

Has anyone tried out Scarf Rotom-W with Foul Play over Will-O-Wisp? Kinda comes in and wrecks the Ogerpons at +2 and is generally safer than trying to pull off a Will-O-Wisp.

I think Foul Play has plenty of room for exploration because of the boosting nature of this Meta. From experience in different Metas, even Foul Play resistances take huge damage if the opponent has boosted enough.

Aside from the rocks weakness, I feel like Rotom-H is maybe better for the meta given its resists. A lot of teams seem to covet the Ice and Fairy resists. The Grass and Electric resists are nice, too. You also can hit some of the Dark types that resist Foul Play super effectively. Gambit, Meow, and Weavile all get hit by Fire STAB.

Foul Play feels like decent tech. The issue I see with Choice Scarf Foul Play being those BE speed and/or Dragon Dance mons. Scarf on base 86 speed won't be enough to actually move first in a lot of cases. Roaring Moon just eats you for breakfast. There are a lot of setup mons with easy ways to boost speed.

Against slower teams like stall, it might be a dead move. I guess you would use Trick for that? Something like Overheat/Hydro Pump, Foul Play, Trick, and Volt Switch?

 

[RS25802580]

If there’s something we can all agree on, it’s that it’s annoying when people talk about ubers drops here and I’m glad it’s over lol.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

you missed the point man. i am not going to filter what i say on other platforms, which are not tied to smogon or official in any capacity. i am me, my own person with my own following. i have no obligation to cater to any forum-based agenda. this is plain and simple. those are my rights as an individual.

if people want to react whatever way they want to them, they can do so, but that does not suddenly lift the forum rules. if you don't get that, then that's on you, not on me.

obviously you have the right to post whatever you want wherever you want. but you have so much influence in the community that your words carry weight across every platform no matter which one they're actually said on

 

[Finchinator]

obviously you have the right to post whatever you want wherever you want. but you have so much influence in the community that your words carry weight across every platform no matter which one they're actually said on

Yes, and I am very careful with how I use my platform and my influence. However, I cannot control how people react to things -- and them going out of the way to circumvent forum blacklists is not within my control. And I should not have to be bound to the rigid rules of the forum elsewhere because otherwise what the fuck is even the point of being an individual? The slippery slope that comes from your implication is super dangerous and restrictive.

This reallllly does not belong here, so it's my last post on the topic, but this should not be that difficult...

 

[Heatranator]

I gotta be blunt. I don't know why people would or should completely ignore what Finch says on here just to hang onto something he tweeted. He wasn't exactly unclear. At this point, it seems to me like it was just certain folks cherry picking what words of his they wanted to pay attention to or outright ignoring him. Past the first few posts, this sort of "misunderstanding" was people going out of their way for it.



Aside from the rocks weakness, I feel like Rotom-H is maybe better for the meta given its resists. A lot of teams seem to covet the Ice and Fairy resists. The Grass and Electric resists are nice, too. You also can hit some of the Dark types that resist Foul Play super effectively. Gambit, Meow, and Weavile all get hit by Fire STAB.

Foul Play feels like decent tech. The issue I see with Choice Scarf Foul Play being those BE speed and/or Dragon Dance mons. Scarf on base 86 speed won't be enough to actually move first in a lot of cases. Roaring Moon just eats you for breakfast. There are a lot of setup mons with easy ways to boost speed.

Against slower teams like stall, it might be a dead move. I guess you would use Trick for that? Something like Overheat/Hydro Pump, Foul Play, Trick, and Volt Switch?

Rotom-H is a mon that while it looks good, fails in practice. It is scared so much to lose its boots, meaning that it can't actually deal with said dark types in practice. It also doesn't like that it's fire stab is overheat, it means it is forced out quite easily after it has used it to not be really passive or has to use an np set, which severely restricts it's versatility. If it doesn't run overheat, then it's not too good and is just worse than rotom-w.
It does have its good traits, for example it can be a good check to many steel and grass types, but I prefer having rotom-w to use wisp.
Maybe it's underexplored, but it isn't used for a reason.

 

[serotine]

obviously you have the right to post whatever you want wherever you want. but you have so much influence in the community that your words carry weight across every platform no matter which one they're actually said on

You are acting like this is the Supreme Court. It's a fucking competitive Pokemon group, can Finch not have an opinion and articulate it? We are educated enough to recognize where and if it crosses the line. The impetus is on the users, not council to vet EVERY action and word they say.

 

[EpicGuy321]

Has anyone tried out Scarf Rotom-W with Foul Play over Will-O-Wisp? Kinda comes in and wrecks the Ogerpons at +2 and is generally safer than trying to pull off a Will-O-Wisp.

I think Foul Play has plenty of room for exploration because of the boosting nature of this Meta. From experience in different Metas, even Foul Play resistances take huge damage if the opponent has boosted enough.

Will-O-Wisp is just better. Non-stab Foul Play just doesn’t do enough damage. Unless you decide to run tera dark, I suppose.

 

[RS25802580]

Aside from the rocks weakness, I feel like Rotom-H is maybe better for the meta given its resists. A lot of teams seem to covet the Ice and Fairy resists. The Grass and Electric resists are nice, too. You also can hit some of the Dark types that resist Foul Play super effectively. Gambit, Meow, and Weavile all get hit by Fire STAB.

Foul Play feels like decent tech. The issue I see with Choice Scarf Foul Play being those BE speed and/or Dragon Dance mons. Scarf on base 86 speed won't be enough to actually move first in a lot of cases. Roaring Moon just eats you for breakfast. There are a lot of setup mons with easy ways to boost speed.

Against slower teams like stall, it might be a dead move. I guess you would use Trick for that? Something like Overheat/Hydro Pump, Foul Play, Trick, and Volt Switch?

Agreed, it feels like base 86 speed hardly cuts it for a scarfer anymore, particularly one that’s trying to punish physical attackers. Ghold and Hamurott can pull it off but they have a lot of other things to offer.

Speedflation really is out of control nowadays!

 

[Heatranator]

Agreed, it feels like base 86 speed hardly cuts it for a scarfer anymore, particularly one that’s trying to punish physical attackers. Ghold and Hamurott can pull it off but they have a lot of other things to offer.

Speedflation really is out of control nowadays!

You probably can make it work, but you have to compensate with lots of priority or a few naturally fast mons like np Darkrai. I've used scarf ttar and it was barely too slow, and that's a base 60 mon. It bet base 80's could work or even base 70's. I think it's just harder to slap them on a team and have that be the only form of speed control.