Discussion RE: SV OU Volcarona & Tera Blast

[Finchinator]

The SV OU tiering council has been discussing the best ways to proceed. With the metagame fluctuating rapidly, we have seen trends and opinions grow more variable than ever before. After the Gouging Fire test, it became clear that the we should give the metagame a few weeks to settle, which especially made sense with some ongoing events like SPL, OST, and the first SV week of ST36. In addition, it felt like we were at a place where you could ask a dozen top players what the problems with the metagame were and receive a half dozen unique answers ranging from numerous topics to nothing at all. Navigating a metagame state like this has to be done carefully and we hit an interesting point in our discussions, so we are opening this PR thread. We hope informed SV OU players can provide their opinion in this thread!

Pokemon like Volcarona and Ogerpon-Wellspring have come up in our chat as potential suspect candidates for the near future. Volcarona in particular has stood out for a while as a potential suspect, which makes sense given how versatile it has grown and how it threatens teams. Being able to handpick your own counterplay is not conducive towards a balanced and competitive metagame typically. While modern counterplay has assumed a slightly different definition and application thanks to potential Tera transactions, there are still considerations for the arguably overbeating impact Volcarona can have both in the builder and during games when it is used well. Volcarona in particular is able to have this presence while not giving off as much indication about its potential set or Tera at team preview as other top threats thanks to the depth of possibilities.

A key component of Volcarona's presence is Tera Blast, which allows for it to hit many would-be checks. Tera Blast has previously been discussed in OU tiering circles, too, as it directly led to the ban of Regieleki, was involved with the ban of Espathra, and was involved with the prior ban of Volcarona. Volcarona itself can use Tera Blast to provide it with complimentary coverage such as Ground or Dragon while using the type change to mask defensive flaws on crucial set-up turn or in general. Tera Blast is certainly not banworthy on every or even the majority of users of the move, but if we are at a point where a third potential ban is on the horizon, then a discussion is at least warranted.

Multiple councilmen have discussed Tera Blast as a potential tiering target this generation, too. ausma has been confident that it should get serious discussion for a number of months now. Recently, Vert made a proposal in the council chat to have a multi-pronged suspect test which included the following options:

• Ban Volcarona
• Ban Tera Blast
• No action

Obviously this would be an unconventional suspect format and this is part of why I wanted to have a PR thread, which will allow for us to gauge input. I think exploring different suspect approaches and creative ways to tier (so long as they are within common sense and tiering guidelines) is something we should embrace, so I do not mind allowing for discussion.

My personal stance is that a standard Volcarona suspect would be fine in the near future (was personally looking at late next week). That does not eliminate the possibility of acting on Tera Blast depending on the trajectory of this thread. I do not feel a huge need to act on Tera Blast myself, but I am openminded to hearing what others think and understand the points made against it.

Please use this thread to discuss what you think the optimal path to proceed would be with regards to Volcarona and Tera Blast. Do not use this thread to discuss other topics such as Tera as a whole (touched on here), Ogerpon-Wellspring, or anything else you think is suspect worthy. There will be other outlets to discuss all of these in the future (and you can even post here and tag me anytime -- I will share anything of note with the council).

For reference of discussion:

Noteworthy OU Tera Blast users:

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• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

Pokemon banned that regularly used Tera Blast:

• 
• 
• (now unbanned)

Tera Types Volcarona uses (from the Tera Type Index): Volcarona Ground, Dragon, Fairy, Bug, Grass, Water, Steel, Fire

 

[LBN]

I don't play OU much so I don't plan on giving much input on the validity of the targets of either test, but I want to say that even recently, split suspects just end up dividing votes based on what the "problem" element people is, as seen most recently with Volcarona + Cloyster's split suspect. There were quite a bit of complaints about how it was a split decision, and I think doing Vert's suggestion of Volcarona + Tera Blast is just a recipe of repeating the same history over again. Especially with how difficult it seems to get people to agree on something in this tier, this is just fast tracking to another dead-end suspect. Just pick Volcarona or Tera Blast.

 

[quacc]

Although I was leaning towards banning Volcarona, this potential option to ban tera blast definitely makes it harder. I think overall when it comes to banning the mon or the move, banning Volcarona would feel like how many people feel about banning Zamazenta, where banning it would be a fast way to alleviate lots of issues with the tier, but would require additional action following. I think Volcarona is a sort of diet version of this, however, because it is more notably a cheese mon, albeit it has very good qualities. If we're going off of banning Volcarona, I think this would be the things we should consider:

Pros	Cons
Can check big threats such as Kyurem and nasty plot Gholdengo.	Matchup moth cheese
Ability to burn with flame body (and when I personally use Volcarona, I almost always use will-o-wisp even on quiver dance sets) makes it a good anti-physical check.

While at first it seems like the pros of keeping Volcarona in the tier outweigh the cons, the big issue that many have is the fact that it's very cheesy when it comes to its use in practice. This is pretty much the biggest reason to ban it (in my opinion, it's not very overpowered but moreso dumb to face in practice, and even dumber when it has the right tera blast). The ability to cheese alone would make me vote ban on Volcarona because we have so many setup mons that can win games with the right set, which is really dumb, and banning Volcarona would cut down on such cheese.

However, banning tera blast is especially appealing because in theory, it cuts down on the matchup moth cheese while still keeping the ability to check lots of mons. Of course, it wouldn't cut down on all of the matchup moth cheese, such as if Volcarona starts running tera steel to be immune to toxic in order to win past Glowking, but it definitely reduces it to probably manageable levels. Banning tera blast even frees potential Ubers mons such as Regieleki, which can have some value (I will go over that later). For now, here's what we should consider when banning tera blast:

Pros	Cons
Potentially keeps Volcarona in the tier, which has valuable qualities in checking threats.	Does not get rid of all the matchup cheese.
Can potentially drop some Ubers, which can add variety to the tier.	Some of the Ubers would still be broken even without tera blast.
	Some cool mons rely on tera blast for solid niches.

Here, it seems like banning tera blast has mostly cons, but it is important to keep in mind that the cons are not as big as keeping Volcarona in the tier to check big threats. Here, I think the pros would outweigh the cons, as keeping Volcarona in the tier can check lots of mons and we could just ban Espathra anyways (I don't think this mon would be droppable even without tera blast, as it is a really dumb cheese emu still and can still run tera fairy dazzling gleam), and the mons that rely on tera blast for niches are not that existent at the moment (there were far more of these mons that existed in pre-HOME, HOME, and maybe some of DLC1), and even if they did exist, these mons would include some of the most hated ones such as Polteageist, although it would definitely be cool if we started seeing stuff like tera blast ice Cinderace still put in work here and there.

As far as freeing Regieleki, outspeeding booster Iron Valiant can be really cool at times, and adding a very fast rapid spinner is also really nice, but it still gets spinblocked by ghost types pretty hard and loses to pretty much every hazard setter. This mon also would probably just be used as a very fast screens lead like we saw some people using Deoxys-Speed as early in the metagame, but this one would do it more effectively with the higher speed. As a result, if we ban tera blast, I don't think we should be focusing on potential Ubers to drop, just what mons we have already that we can save by banning tera blast.

I'm not a fan that tera blast ban mainly saves Volcarona and not much, but I will say that banning tera blast has less of a negative impact than banning Volcarona overall despite not having the biggest potential benefit, so it is definitely a valid ban path. I'm not sure what I would vote on if either got suspected, but I definitely think some action needs to be taken when it comes to cheese mons like Volcarona, whether it be a tera blast ban or a ban of the mon itself. Maybe I will favor one action over the other when it comes to metagame developments and other posts in the future, but right now I think something will eventually need to happen.

 

[Star]

I think multi-pronged suspects r generally bad ideas bc it’s not really possible to find a perfect format that ensures a supermajority of people actually want whatever specific outcome. We’ve seen this issue come up numerous times with ranked choice votes and also the recent BW Volc/Cloy test. You can read that thread and also my post to understand the complications with finding a good voting format. The general conclusion imo is that suspects should always just be binary.

As for Volc and Tera Blast individually I lean no ban on both anyway. I’m fairly strongly opposed to a Tera Blast ban because I feel like the move adds an interesting element to the tier and I don’t really feel like it’s Abused at all in the current meta. It’s not incredibly common and even with the moths/contrary mons that most often use it, there’s not exactly a ton of variety in what specific tera blasts you can expect. I think the move is mostly just an avenue for creativity and I don’t think it’s nearly broken enough to go at this time.

Volc is more controversial but I wouldn’t vote ban on that either at this point. I feel like it’s not at its peak in the meta given how a lot of teams seem to either be offensive enough to just overwhelm it or so fat they just don’t give a fuck. Some of the mons that check it pretty well (Primarina, Tox Psyshock Glowking, Dragonite) are extremely splashable. Others like Dirge are also very good although obv not quite as splashable. Guessing Volc sets can definitely be annoying but I just don’t think it’s at a point where I feel it’s really overwhelming.

 

[FayaWizard]

I don't think a Tera Blast ban should be considered for this suspect: while it has undeniably lead to the bans of Regieleki, Espathra and the current controversial status of Volcarona, I still don't think it's a banworthy element.
Looking at the current users in OU, only two are really considered "problematic", Volcarona and Kingambit, and Kingambit doesn't even run Tera Blast often, with it showing up on less than 5% of Kingambit's in the 1825+ range last month.

Meanwhile, the other 4 are more avid users of Tera Blast, especially Serperior and Iron Moth, but I wouldn't say that Tera Blast is unhealthy on them. Iron Moth still struggles heavily to fit all the moves it wants, as well as a myriad of other issues that plague it, while Serperior needs Tera Blast desperately to accomplish anything due to its bad coverage options. Zapdos relies on Tera Blast to beat Gliscor and other Ground types that plague it, and Enamorus is the only one of the 4 that can operate fine without Tera Blast, and only opts for it on less than 20% of sets.

Is Tera Blast is really the suspect-worthy element here? Espathra can still run Tera Fairy with Dazzling Gleam to cheese much the same as it did before, and while Regieleki and Volcarona would no doubt be saved, 2 out of the 8 users being broken doesn't really indicate a suspect-worthy move, at least to me.

Furthermore, a multi-pronged suspect test isn't the path to go around this: we've seen in the recent suspects how divided the playerbase is, first on the Kyurem suspect, and now on Gouging Fire. It's already a difficult task to rally enough support for a standard suspect test, and I fear this multi-pronged approach will split the votes further and lead to no action taken, which in my opinion is the worst outcome of all. I believe the way forward is a suspect on Volcarona alone.

 

[AK]

I feel like the right decision would be to address both Terablast and Volcarona separately, as LBN explained very well why a split suspect right now would probably not be the best idea even though I understand the reasoning behind it. If that is the decision reached then I just wanna say I think the council should adress terablast as a whole before the Volcarona suspect and settle the issue once and for all so we can move on and stop leaving the idea of a terablast ban 'hanging', and it is illogical to approach it afterwards since unbanning Volcarona again would just having to go backwards again which doesn't make sense if we want to keep moving forward. TLDR: Suspect Volcarona, adress Terablast before as a council vote, this is probably not the right thread but Volcarona should for sure go.

 

[Tio Chico]

Tera Blast is a dead slot unless you find the right matchup, and it still forces you to burn your Terastal on the Pokémon.
With so much powercreep in the generation we still have few abusers who stand out for using Tera Blast. Many have just a niche like the Hydrapple stall, others are abusers as a victory condition and highly rated in VR, like Volcarona.
If Volcarona manages to overcome all the cons and find several pros using Tera Blast, the problem is Volcarona.

Removing Tera Blast would have several cons;
Inevitably a nerf and mischaracterization of Terastal mechanics.
It is mandatory to return with Regieleki and discuss Espathra, which would be a setback instead of progress.
Niche removal on other only viable and non-broken Pokémon.
Influence on low tiers.

TL;DR: Suspect any abusing Pokémon (Volcarona this time) > Do nothing > Remove Terastal entirely > Remove Tera Blast.

 

[zioziotrip]

Let me preface this entire post by saying I believe this metagame needs little adjustment from this point and is in a fairly good spot balance wise. Every archetype is perfectly viable and there are such a massive number of offensive and defensive tools to deal with threats to where you can use a large variety of mons approaching building. I would just flat ban Ogerpon-Wellspring as I do not think the defensive responses are nearly sufficient relative to how insanely explosive and insanely easy it is to use but I’m not a fan of choosing mons that aren’t really problematic but could be out of a hat then banning them.

It’s hard to decide on a direction because as is the metagame doesn’t have a massive builder nuisance (besides wellspring) and bans would mostly be quality of life or personal preference. I don’t think we’re going to reach some equilibrium by just banning the next best mon to cut down on “threat over-saturation.” If something can be dealt with reasonably in the builder then it shouldn’t matter how many contemporary threats accompany it as they also have reasonable builder responses.

Anyways, to directly address the OP: I wouldn’t ban Tera Blast in any situation and don’t think Volcarona is problematic. I really do see the argument for a Tera Blast ban, it’s Tera’s greatest opportunity to actually flip MUs ie Iron Moth vs Heatran with no Tera Blast is futile for Moth. I just think there are a lot more practical limitations than Tera Blast than this tho. If you change type to Ground for example, you become prio weak. If your opp still has a tera response you just dedicated an incredibly valuable resource to kill a Heatran (useless.)

Barring mons that universally benefit from and exploit Tera Blast like Regieleki, most mons have practical limitations with the move and once you start getting into the weeds of Tera Blast users they really are quite limited which begs the question of why we are banning the move instead of the most problematic users.

Volcarona is annoying and notrious but with Slowking-G, Prim, Fire-Resist Tera Gambit, and mons like Weav/Rilla that are already commonplace that limit Volc greatly. You also have more extreme options like Dirge, Scarf Darkrai, Edge Zama, etc. that make its life hard.

To cut a madman’s post short: target mons before mechanics. This metagame is fine, volcarona is fine, tera blast is fine, wellspring is not fine.

Edit: volcarona should be suspected as it clearly has community support but I believe it should be suspected alone

 

[Niko]

Please use this thread to discuss what you think the optimal path to proceed would be with regards to Volcarona and Tera Blast. Do not use this thread to discuss other topics such as Tera as a whole (touched on here), Ogerpon-Wellspring, or anything else you think is suspect worthy. There will be other outlets to discuss all of these in the future (and you can even post here and tag me anytime -- I will share anything of note with the council).

Please stop with this dumb trend of pointing out that some matters are off-limits, any topic related to tiering action should obviously be allowed in a tiering action thread, regardless of the OP. Since bans and clauses interact each others, it's delusional to demand 0 discussion on alternatives and their impacts on the tier when analyzing an option. Of course this thread shouldn't keep its focus on Tera or Ogerpon-W but discussions about it could help in decision making. Tera influences the whole tier every turn and in every game after all.

That being said, Tera Blast is far from being an abused move and we can't really accept to take out a move that every Pokémon learns just because few Pokémon are broken with it , so I agree with people saying the focus should be on Volcarona. Suspect it and leave Tera Blast alone and if after Volcarona Suspect Tera Blast still creates problem then we can discuss it again. But I don't think it will happen.

 

[Ferenia]

I am pleased that this post came up just before the start of the next official teamtour such as the wcop.

I have been practicing the tier a lot these last few months and I really have no idea why roaring moon is not included in that list but volcarona and iron moth are pokes that can really be very problematic using the tera, especially volcarona because it has access to quiver dance which, together with an almost unpredictable tera, makes it a very fearful pokemon as soon as we see it and the rival team.

Actually at this point I'm not a fan of banning the tera blast , because it makes the tier have its special and unique touch, although I'm still not used to using it, I can say that it is a bit fun to play with this and if a suspect is made I am sure that this will not be banned because many people have that feeling.

 

[Finchinator]

any topic related to tiering action should obviously be allowed in a tiering action thread, regardless of the OP.

You are obviously allowed to discuss all of these elements in the metagame. My own OP does and it’s impossible to discuss the tier without them. The point is that this thread isn’t about discussing other suspects or bans as alternatives right now (and I linked the place to do so), hence why I said the optimal path to proceed with regards to Volcarona and Tera Blast is what we are commenting on.

Every other poster understood this and this has been commonplace across suspect threads in every tier for as long as I can remember.

 

[658Greninja]

I’ll reiterate what I said about Volc in the discussion thread.

What makes Volc problematic is that its counterplay is almost soley dependent on what Tera it uses. While you can argue that this isn’t unique to Volc, nothing in the tier abuses it offensively and defensively as well as Volc, because you have no idea what set or Tera its running on preview. It would suck to lose a crucial defensive piece for matchups like Kyu/Ghold/Val, but this isn’t a void that can’t be filled by other mons.

-Universal checks like Glowking and SpD Gliscor often have to trade themselves just to get off a Toxic, plus they lose to Sub-QD, which I think is the most bs Volc set.

-Dragonite can get burnt by Flame Body, or Wisp. It also loses to Tera Fairy/Dragon Blast.

-Prim gets 1v1d by Volc with Giga Drain, especially if it’s Tera Grass.

-Dirge can lose to offensive sets with Tera Ground and Bug Buzz/Giga cause its forced to burn Recover pp, so you lose the 1v1 anyways.

-Pult is the fakest Volc check, and it loses to Tera Ground/Dragon/Fairy.

-Ting-Lu takes 50 from Bug Buzz and needs Stone Edge to dispose it.

-Tera Fire Gambit dies to Tera Ground Blast anyways.

-Val and Scarf Rai can cripple it with Encore/Trick, but they’re one time option.

-Even team compositions designed to beat Volc like Rillatran can backfire. Both of them can outright lose to Tera Dragon because Tran lost Toxic, Magma Storm is the worst move in the game, and Volc can legit 1v1 it after 2 or more QD boosts. Plus you could run into some bullshit like Tera Water Sub-QD.

-The only true checks are Clodsire and Blissey, so either run Clod on Balance, run like 3 Volc checks, or run Stall to be safe into Volc.

-Balance is on the tier and Stall has been adapting with tech like Wo-Chien/Amoonguss/Sinistcha for Wogre or Mirror Coat Mola for shit like Tera Ghost Volcanion. HO is still good, but it’s showing to be less consistent than in previous periods of SV OU. Counterplay to Volc for offensive builds is more limited and less consistent than for Balance/Stall. Most builds can deal with Darkrai, Prima, Rbolt, or Kyurem individually, but with Volc, they overwhelm them easily. Stacking 2-3 special walls isn’t ideal when you have to account for Gambit, Wogre, and Moon. Imo Volc is a big contributor to the threat saturation, without it, these threats would be much easier to account for in the builder. Suspect Volc.

As for Tera Blast, no mons besides Espa/Eleki/Volc were banned because of it. None of the main abusers are broken either. Some mons like Gambit and Enam are even slowly dropping Tera Blast. Serp is another Tera Blast abuser but imo its better off with Sub-Seed or Knock which cripples the things Serp wants to hit anyways. Tera Blast is Hidden Power with 20 more BP + STAB but requires a larger resource than Hidden Power did. I actually do like the way Tera Blast is handled, it allows for player expression and allowed for cool niche sets like Specs Tera Flying Thundy-T which popped off during the Home meta. No action on Tera Blast.

 

[Demon Queen]

I guess I'm not really understanding if Tera Blast is bringing much positive to the tier? Making viable(er)? Beyond that it just feels like cheese that lets mainstays likeand random crap like (and countless more examples both in the heights of SPL and depths of the ladder) circumvent their checks. Even if it's not that common, or if it's not making anything specifically broken (beyond maybe the moth in the room), it feels like Tera Blast is a big component of the voliatility and MU-fishiness that people inveigh about in this meta.

 

[Lily]

Tera Blast /generally/ sucks outside of mons with extremely limited counterplay *and* high snowball potential (i.e. Volcarona). Stuff like Enamorus and Serperior are straight up bad with it even if the Stellar mechanic benefits them because they're just so piss weak lol. I don't think anyone truly wants Espathra back and it'd still do the same cheesy bullshit it did even without Tera Blast. The best mons are the ones that are consistent regardless of whether you know what they're running or what counterplay they run into - see Kingambit or Ogerpon-W. Tera Blast inherently makes consistent mons less consistent and is a detriment to the user more often than not. If Volcarona is broken with Tera Blast it's probably a sign that we're so lacking in consistent Volcarona counterplay that it being able to work around its tiny pool of answers breaks the tier in half.

Whether or not Volcarona is Too Good is not rlly something I have a strong opinion on right now but I think banning Tera Blast would just be silly, it sees use on one arguably broken Pokemon and then sometimes it sees use on fringe lures. I mean heck 2 of the noteworthy OU users listed in the OP were UU until a week ago and 1 still is, while another 2 are in danger of dropping very soon. It's very clear that Tera Blast is not consistent and while I sympathise with wanting to keep Volcarona around for its Kyurem/IVal/etc checking capabilities it just doesn't make much sense to ban the move over it.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I think targeting Tera Blast for a suspect is probably fine, but there’s no reason to tie it to a Volcarona suspect as part of the same process. That just seems lazy and I can’t imagine it leading to any kind of positive solution that everyone agrees on. I’ve been saying for a while that Tera Blast could be tested as a way to restrict things, but this is the wrong way to do it. And if Volc ends up getting banned in this multi layered test, people will use it as an excuse not to do anything with Tera Blast later by falsely claiming it got a fair test when really all that would have shown is that people just wanted Volc gone.

Test Volc individually, or test Tera Blast individually, or don’t test either. Doing anything else is setting up bad precedents also.

 

[RoiDadadou]

I think multiple suspects like this have been made before, so surely the format is not a big problem.

My main thing with Tera Blast is that it just feels like addressing a bit of a side issue. Sure, it will nerf a bit Volcarona (still remains stupid, but at least more manageable), Gambit (that's a cool one, because being able to check it more consistently in tournaments with Zama/Tusk brings the Mon in a somewhat healthier position), Raging Bolt and a few others, but it does nothing for a lot of issues people have in the tier (Ogerpon, Kyurem, etc). In short, technically, it lessens some problems, but fixes none of them.

I think if I had to choose rn, Volcarona would be the thing I'd vote after doing the suspect. Removing its whole existence from the tier seems healthier and more in line with a meta progression, whereas Tera Blast is more of a 'patch it a bit and see what happens'. By the way I know it was only mentioned to be as thorough as possible, but I think unbanning Eleki/Espathra has no place whatsoever in taking the decision, those are cheesy/useless Mon we really don't care about nor want to see, and will remain in the forsaken land of cheese anw, no real addition to the meta.

I won't be long on my last bit, since it's a bit of trail, but I wanted to suggest an approach to the suspect tests that was used during the Tera controversy at the beginning of the Gen: indicate whether you want action or not, then order the actions if so.

I think this could be applied fairly easily if the discussion or suspect around Blast/Volca leads nowhere, in the following way: when voting for the suspect, ask people if they feel like the tier needs actions taken, then ask them to order between Volcarona, Tera Blast, Ogerpon, Raging, etc, ranking them just like we did at the time. If Action gets the super majority then the higher ranked option would get the boot from the tier.

Anyway that was my bit of rumbling, I'll wait to see other formulate their opinions, but I think only a suspect of Rona or what I suggested can push the tier forward in a somewhat nice way, Tera Blast seems as always like a semi option, a bait if you will.

 

[Techno]

I personally think that looking more into tera preview would be an ideal first step. Knowing what Tera types your opponent has at the start of the game lets you prep accordingly, and imo, it's more balanced and less random guessing. For example, if Volcarona is Tera Dragon, you know that your Gouging Fire won't be able to check it, rather than having to randomly guess its Tera type mid-game and lose if you get it wrong.

Regardless of that, I think it's worth suspect testing Volcarona in general. It's very matchup dependant, and Tera obviously lets it get around some of these matchups. I think it would make less sense to look at Tera Blast, as Tera is more of a problem than the move itself. Tera Blast isn't really broken on most mons, unlike Shed Tail / Last Respects, where it's a clearly broken move, no matter what Pokemon uses it.

 

[Srn]

I posted about tera blast more than 4 months ago and I still believe what I said then so I'll just drop the relevant parts again

Tera blast

If we're unhappy with the general state of the tier and we're looking for a place to start improving things, I would reluctantly suggest looking at a Tera Blast suspect. I think removing this move could reduce some of the powercreep and volatility of this tier.
Imo the big 4 abusers are these

With some viable, honorable mentions here

You can click on the sprites to see an example, but they're not the only sets that can be run. I may have missed a few, which only goes to show how unpredictable this move can be.

Why did I say "reluctantly"

There's a few reasons why I personally don't like a suspect on Tera Blast.

1) Tera Blast itself is not used that frequently on any of these pokemon except the first 3, and I can't say with confidence that any of these pokemon would get banned via suspect, so...what's the rationale for actually banning tera blast? If it isn't directly breaking any OU mons, and you're instead trying to reduce the overall power level and volatility of the meta, wouldn't you rather just target tera instead?

2) Tera Blast in a vacuum is just an 80 base power special normal type move. It's not broken or even good. What makes Tera Blast anything remotely worthy of suspecting is Tera, and we do not tier competitive metas by targeting "balanced" little slices of a broken pie. We didn't ban Jet Punch, we banned palafin, and tiering should work that way, because we primarily tier pokemon. Moves, abilities, items, etc are all secondary to that.

I feel like every real reason to target tera blast goes double to target tera instead, but few people are willing to step up and do that. All that said, if a majority of the community wants to suspect tera blast, then I think the tiering philosophy can be bent to make an exception or whatever, because this is a unique case. Nobody wrote down tiering philosophy a decade ago with a bullshit mechanic like Tera in mind. Tera Blast is something I would vote to ban, but not enthusiastically.

Don't split the suspect test between 2 options to vote ban on unless you have the option for voting ban on both. Splitting up the playerbase like this further dilutes our already slim chances of any meaningful change happening to improve this tier.

Volcarona should be suspected (and banned) for many great reasons already mentioned in this thread. Primarina/Dnite/Glowking are not sufficient counterplay and come with their own challenges to fit on a team. Even the splashable glowking is super easy for volcarona to work around imo. More solid checks like dirge, clodsire, blissey etc are much more difficult to fit onto a team. It's a nice fairy+ice resist but I would much rather see it go due to the teambuilding strain it creates.

 

[veti]

Tera Blast ban and even a mere suspect of Tera Blast is completely unjustified, suspect Volcarona exclusively if anything gets suspected, as Tera Blast is uncomparable to any banned moves.

Last Respects and Shed Tail are broken on every Pokemon, Tera Blast is broken on three out of every Pokemon, maybe two depending on who you ask, some people have a couple more but they make up a pretty small minority of qualified players. There is also only a singular Pokemon (Volcarona) currently not banned thats being discussed for being broken with Tera Blast, out of the 43 OU Pokemon and ~100 Pokemon on the VR, all of which have access to the move.

Tera Blast is also not uncompetitive as nearly every other banned move is. The definition of "uncompetitive" as laid out in the tiering policy framework is "elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant." Tera Blast and Tera as a whole still require plenty of skill on both sides of the battle, and games with Tera Blast do not at all make more skillful play irrelevant in the same way as pre nerf Swagger, OHKO Moves, Evasion, Baton Pass and others. Those moves truly do make more skillful play irrelevant by reducing the game to an rng fest / baton pass being an autowin vs some team structures. Baton Pass is the closest to Tera Blast, however one of the biggest separations is that Baton Pass requires way more Pokemon bans to even be considered healthy, Tera Blast is either fine as is with 2 bans or needs one more ban to be fine.

Ban Tera Blast is simply a way to keep Volcarona in the tier and nothing more. If Volcarona is deemed a problem, ban Volcarona.

 

[Highv0ltag3]

The SV OU tiering council has been discussing the best ways to proceed. With the metagame fluctuating rapidly, we have seen trends and opinions grow more variable than ever before. After the Gouging Fire test, it became clear that the we should give the metagame a few weeks to settle, which especially made sense with some ongoing events like SPL, OST, and the first SV week of ST36. In addition, it felt like we were at a place where you could ask a dozen top players what the problems with the metagame were and receive a half dozen unique answers ranging from numerous topics to nothing at all. Navigating a metagame state like this has to be done carefully and we hit an interesting point in our discussions, so we are opening this PR thread. We hope informed SV OU players can provide their opinion in this thread!

Pokemon like Volcarona and Ogerpon-Wellspring have come up in our chat as potential suspect candidates for the near future. Volcarona in particular has stood out for a while as a potential suspect, which makes sense given how versatile it has grown and how it threatens teams. Being able to handpick your own counterplay is not conducive towards a balanced and competitive metagame typically. While modern counterplay has assumed a slightly different definition and application thanks to potential Tera transactions, there are still considerations for the arguably overbeating impact Volcarona can have both in the builder and during games when it is used well. Volcarona in particular is able to have this presence while not giving off as much indication about its potential set or Tera at team preview as other top threats thanks to the depth of possibilities.

A key component of Volcarona's presence is Tera Blast, which allows for it to hit many would-be checks. Tera Blast has previously been discussed in OU tiering circles, too, as it directly led to the ban of Regieleki, was involved with the ban of Espathra, and was involved with the prior ban of Volcarona. Volcarona itself can use Tera Blast to provide it with complimentary coverage such as Ground or Dragon while using the type change to mask defensive flaws on crucial set-up turn or in general. Tera Blast is certainly not banworthy on every or even the majority of users of the move, but if we are at a point where a third potential ban is on the horizon, then a discussion is at least warranted.

Multiple councilmen have discussed Tera Blast as a potential tiering target this generation, too. ausma has been confident that it should get serious discussion for a number of months now. Recently, Vert made a proposal in the council chat to have a multi-pronged suspect test which included the following options:

• Ban Volcarona
• Ban Tera Blast
• No action

Obviously this would be an unconventional suspect format and this is part of why I wanted to have a PR thread, which will allow for us to gauge input. I think exploring different suspect approaches and creative ways to tier (so long as they are within common sense and tiering guidelines) is something we should embrace, so I do not mind allowing for discussion.

My personal stance is that a standard Volcarona suspect would be fine in the near future (was personally looking at late next week). That does not eliminate the possibility of acting on Tera Blast depending on the trajectory of this thread. I do not feel a huge need to act on Tera Blast myself, but I am openminded to hearing what others think and understand the points made against it.

Please use this thread to discuss what you think the optimal path to proceed would be with regards to Volcarona and Tera Blast. Do not use this thread to discuss other topics such as Tera as a whole (touched on here), Ogerpon-Wellspring, or anything else you think is suspect worthy. There will be other outlets to discuss all of these in the future (and you can even post here and tag me anytime -- I will share anything of note with the council).

For reference of discussion:

Noteworthy OU Tera Blast users:

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• 
• 
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• 

Pokemon banned that regularly used Tera Blast:

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• (now unbanned)

Tera Types Volcarona uses (from the Tera Type Index): Volcarona Ground, Dragon, Fairy, Bug, Grass, Water, Steel, Fire

I believe a Tera Blast ban is the best way forward for the metagame. While Tera Blast on it's own isn't broken in the sense that it can not be answered, it pushes the metagame towards a state of heavy counterteaming and reliance on surprise factor to win, which in my opinion is an uncompetitive trend . While lure sets always existed throughout competitive pokemon, it is important to note that, for example, a Taunt Whirlpool Protective Pads Urshifu that tried to lure a Toxapex in Generation 8 would be limited by not having a Choice Band and sometimes lacking a Fighting type move in order to make itself useful against other Pokemon. With Tera Blast, this limitation does not exist, you merely expand your list of "victims" withouth any trade-off other than having to commit one move slot to Tera Blast.

Surprise factor is a big part of Pokemon, but Hidden Power was removed from the game for a reason, the ability to choose whatever Pokémon from the list of your counters will no longer counter you, based on recent meta trends or your opponent's trends (In Tournaments) sometimes makes gen9OU feel like a draft tournament game where instead of choosing the right Hidden Power type for the match-up you choose the right Tera Blast Type.

I am aware that Tera Blast is not super common, but I think the metagame would only bennefit from it's ban. Having Regieleki back in the tier could be a great addition to the list of viable rapid Spinners, and limiting Volcarona's potential to steal games through surprise factor can only be a good thing.

 

[Fleet_Fox]

The more I’ve played this meta the less I think Volc needs to go. Glowking is everywhere with psyshock and toxic, Roaring Moon (massive issue imo), unaware users like Clodsire, Dragonite etc. Even with “matchup fishing” teras Volc doesn’t feel nearly as oppressive as it was pre home where it felt like it could just qd and win. I wouldn’t mind a suspect to look at it further if that’s what most people agree on but I do not think it’s broken.

The fact you have to tera to use Tera blast and it’s just a (mostly) useless move the rest of the time makes me think it isn’t broken. If Volc is deemed too broken with Tera blast then we should ban Volc. If Tera blast gets banned Volc will still be good and can still Tera to mitigate its bad matchups, Kingambit will still be good, Dragapult and Enamorus and Raging Bolt will still be good. It will be directly nerfing the low move pool Pokémon like Serp and Iron Moth.

I don’t mind having suspect tests on Volc or Tera blast but I don’t think they should be tested together.

 

[viivian]

the way i see it, volcarona should be dealt with first and foremost given that it is by far the most problematic abuser of tera blast in the game. if any problems with tera blast persist should volcarona get banned then prompt tiering action should be taken against TB, be it a suspect test or quickban vote

 

[Vert]

theorized this proposal since there's a lot of bitching about the metagame. plenty of players hate SV right now, but the reality is volcarona won't get 60% in a suspect test. wellspring might but it'd be very close. same with every other threat in the tier. that's because everyone has their own opinion on how to "fix" SV OU:

volcarona
kyurem
wellspring
gouging fire
raging bolt
roaring moon
kingambit
zamazenta
gholdengo
deoxys-speed
garganacl
darkrai
gliscor

33% of the playerbase would probably vote ban on 1 of these 'mons and keep the rest. that 1 'mon is different for every voter. another 33% wants 2-3 of these 'mons gone. once again, the 'mons selected are different for everyone. the final 33% want most of, if not the whole list banned and/or hate tera as a mechanic.

there is no chien-pao or bloodmoon sitting here. a lot of these are controversial, especially with tera, which is why i thought a tera blast ban could be cool to cut down variance for people who hate the tier. volcarona gets nerfed. same with kingambit which has a dumb tera blast-fairy set. regieleki gets freed. random troll moments from dd kyurem, darkrai, dragonite, raging bolt disappear, etc.

anyways my personal opinion is volcarona is fine. the metagame is fine too; i've been enjoying it and find it competitive. read through the thread and most players want to keep the move so i won't push for this anymore.

thanks.

 

[ausma]

Hello; I am one of the primary advocates against Tera Blast, and I'd like to chat about why I feel this way about the move and why I believe the tier would positively benefit from its removal. I've been very vocal about this for the past few months and nothing has changed too much. I've received some excellent closer perspectives on the nature of the move and perceptions involved with its health on the tier, so I believe I have a better understanding of my own stance and can argue against it more thoroughly instead of complaining about personal experiences.

Tera Blast is a pretty straight forward move on paper, and provides a rather polarized variant of Hidden Power with an opportunity cost that's massive, but with the potential to be a tool that breaks open the game if the matchup is correct. Unlike Hidden Power, it is a move that has very polarized applications. Both moves provide autonomous coverage, duh. Comparatively, Hidden Power is a consistent, albeit low-power tool that can provide some open-ended coverage for special attacking Pokemon that really need it. Tera Blast, however, takes just about everything that makes Hidden Power a more conservative option and warps it into something far more unstable. Because of its inherent ties to the Tera mechanic, actually using it requires committing your Tera, otherwise you have a middling 80 BP specially-based Normal move which is useless for most OU viable Pokemon. If you decide to commit, however, you gain a sudden coverage move that is leagues stronger than Hidden Power even at its peak. There is a very major disparity between the two extremes at which Tera Blast functions, and it's for that reason that the move is inherently one that is focused on leaning into that extreme. I've found there are two main ways that Tera Blast is used:

1: To obtain a sudden, high-power STAB move
2: To suddenly flip around bad matchups

There is something worth noting about these applications, being that they both do not focus exclusively on using Tera Blast as coverage like it seems to be used for on paper. While this will always be the case one way or another anyway, Tera Blast also has another major strength over Hidden Power, being the surprise factor. This one has been thrown around a lot, and for a good reason imo; Tera itself is often criticized by the pro-ban crowd as being a way to take away control from the game due to its ability to flip around matchups at the whim of the Tera user. Many people argue that Tera Blast does something similar, but like Tera, can be predicted and played around. While this has some semblance of truth to it, there is a level of disconnect in how non-Tera Blast Tera users use Tera as opposed to Tera Blast users. Non-Tera Blast Pokemon will often choose a Tera type that complements their defensive profile or is generically good in order to lean into their bulk or seek an extra turn to make progress with. These are usually able to be inferred and maneuvered around in a way that's feasible given the game state. There are times where this has offensive applications, such as some same-type Tera users, or Pokemon that pick a Tera type that aligns with their movepool, but these, too, are able to be inferred. However, where Tera Blast users deviate is rather noteworthy, imo. When picking Tera Blast as a coverage move, the world is your oyster. Many Pokemon have used Tera Blast solely to get that perfect coverage option (Tera Volcarona, Tera Serperior), or use it as a complement to their offensive profile that also has defensive benefits; regardless of your reason, though, you absolutely do value that surprise factor such that you can pick off a target of your choosing. The best case scenario for a Tera Blast user is offense and defense are both magnified, but Tera Blast and its polar qualities absolutely do play a role in influencing what Tera types are selected and in a way that creates more variance in the ways that Pokemon that utilize the mechanic at large. At times, it can have a substantial influence on the type you choose to a point where it does lean usage of the mechanic ingame into something more matchup oriented.

re: Broken vs. Unhealthy

I feel as though Tera Blast as a move is very difficult to argue as truly broken in the conventional sense. The opportunity cost is truly massive, especially on offensive Pokemon like Iron Moth that value their coverage slots. I understand where people are coming from with this argument, but I need to really make it crystal clear: the argument against Tera Blast isn't that it's broken, but instead an unhealthy element of the tier. There is very much so a difference. Something being unhealthy is something that permeates in the metagame that has more subtle, trickle-down effects and not something that overtly centralizes the tier around itself. Something broken does exactly that, and is generally a more commanding presence because of its consistency. Tthink of Pokemon like Flutter Mane or moves like Last Respects.

The reason I see Tera Blast as unhealthy is because it waters down the nuance involved with using Tera and encourages using it more as a tool to fish for positive matchups instead of the opportunities that make Tera an actually positive mechanic. Volcarona is far and away the biggest culprit of this, but there are a multitude of other Pokemon that all use Tera Blast in this fashion. Iron Moth, Serperior, Dragonite, and the list trickles down hard into more niche territory where you find generally less effective Pokemon that seek viability through exploiting Tera Blast's polarity. In fact, I believe this is why many people argue that Tera Blast isn't prominent enough to be worth addressing. Generally the less consistent an offensive Pokemon is, the more likely it is going to use Tera Blast; see fringe Pokemon like Sandy Shocks, Polteageist, Galarian Moltres, Comfey, Zapdos, Hisuian Lilligant, Hydrapple, Excadrill, etc.. These are just some examples I picked out arbitrarily from the VR. The truth is there are dozens of Pokemon that find some fringe viability through Tera Blast and exploiting its most unhealthy qualities. While I understand for many there is an appeal to this by making bad Pokemon more worthwhile, I disagree. I think relying on Tera Blast to make a Pokemon offensively consistent is inherently a volatile dynamic and encourages using your favorite Pokemon more as a tool to pick up random KOs or to pick and choose what you want it to win/lose against arbitrarily. I don't see this as positive, I see this as actively detrimental toward gamestates and teambuilding processes by encouraging matchup fishing instead of rewarding clever analysis of a Pokemon's combined qualities.

re: Positive Effects of Removing Tera Blast

There are several, to put it shortly. First and foremost, Tera Blast is undeniably the reason that we've seen bans on Pokemon like Regieleki and Espathra, the former of which provides the tier with another viable Rapid Spin user with a deluxe Speed tier and reasonable counterplay, and the latter providing offense a nice tool into bulkier structures that can be more feasibly checked. I think reintroducing these Pokemon into the tier would be a net positive even if they aren't always going to be performance superstars, simply because they expand options in a very relevant yet still manageable way. Volcarona is another Pokemon that I believe would be a healthy and welcome presence in the tier if not for Tera Blast. Its defensive utility is genuinely awesome. It provides a check into Rillaboom, Iron Valiant, and the almighty Kyurem (which is an extremely rare quality), for example, and can become a win condition more oriented around endgames instead of carving opportunities at its own whim.

Barring Pokemon themselves, I believe Tera would instead be mostly focused upon for its intrinsic qualities as a way to pivot around matchups, but in a way that does not always yield control to the Tera user. Removing Tera Blast means Tera as a mechanic can be used ingame for its positive qualities and work with the limitations of a Pokemon in a way that is far more reasonable to react to, instead of aggressive matchup fishing that actually does take away control from the victim.

re: Suspect Approach

I believe Vert's proposal is solid on paper, but I think in practice having a dual pronged suspect is a fickle idea. I am open to the idea of taking this approach for the inevitable reevaluation of Volcarona and welcome some more thoughts regarding it, but I do worry how much the intersect between the two could influence the reason people vote for what they do. On paper this doesn't sound too bad, but I do think sometimes herding voting philosophy in this way can have awkward implications, in a manner much like what LBN mentioned. Whatever winds up being the approach, Volcarona winds up nerfed, but this could make removing Tera Blast a more desirable alternative when offered with such an asinine user of it in the equation right next to it and lead to a more extreme outcome. As much as I would like Tera Blast removed from the tier, I believe it deserves its own evaluation due to how it operates on a tier-wide scale. Offering this option alongside Volcarona could overly simplify the discussion when I don't think either Volcarona or Tera Blast deserve that given how nuanced their relationships with the tier are.

Let me know if any of you have any questions on specific issues relating to Tera Blast or Volcarona based on what I've said here. I'm happy to elaborate where needed!

 

[Dhrabb]

Ausma says it best, Tera Blast isn't a traditionally broken move, it has ginormous opportunity cost and as many have said is often a dead slot on most users of the move. But its existence increases the matchup fishy nature of the tier. Yes it's a desd slot on many games, but when that Volcarona runs into a Heatran and/or Slowking-Galar, it's its most valuable move. This is the peak of matchup fishing imo, and if a suspect on this were to be held, I'd vote ban. And if that ends up in a DNB, we can look into Volc afterwards with no potential X factor of a tera blast action swaying voters to vote otherwise.