holy shit finch is gonna become a dictator and ban garganacl from RU
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I get why people are frustrated: suspects aren’t leading to bans when they think things may be broke.
However, I need everyone to keep in mind that the tier is still moving at a breakneck pace. Gouging Fire got a 4.1 and had strong council suspect support a few weeks ago, but now a lot of top players are posting about different forms of counterplay through Pokemon, cores, etc. that previously weren’t used as much.
We are going to have growing pains. The best thing right now is to wait until things settle rather then overreact. This has happened before in tiering and it will likely happen again, but it will all work out just fine.
The metagame is not THAT bad right now, but I agree it needs settling and eventual work. We will get there and I am committed to that for all of you. I’m not a slouch and you all know that, but I promise there will be more coming.
However, I need everyone to keep in mind that the tier is still moving at a breakneck pace. Gouging Fire got a 4.1 and had strong council suspect support a few weeks ago, but now a lot of top players are posting about different forms of counterplay through Pokemon, cores, etc. that previously weren’t used as much.
We are going to have growing pains. The best thing right now is to wait until things settle rather then overreact. This has happened before in tiering and it will likely happen again, but it will all work out just fine.
The metagame is not THAT bad right now, but I agree it needs settling and eventual work. We will get there and I am committed to that for all of you. I’m not a slouch and you all know that, but I promise there will be more coming.
Imma want to try out rotom-frost just to counter the hell out of kyurem. Maybe even on stall. Imma go into the builder to try it out.
I'm disappointed in the Gouging vote. It would have been a surprise if we hadn't all seen the tide turning, but we did. Not here to say it is right or wrong. For me personally, I don't find Gouging Fire to be a healthy or fun influence on the tier. There are also concerns about the future direction of the tier. I don't mean to be all doomer, but I don't particularly feel positively about the state of the current meta and the community will to do anything about it.
There just isn't enough agreement on what to do. There are many borderline mons in a threat saturated meta with no cohesive will to ban. Everyone has there own opinions about it and many different and often opposite positions are justifiable. But if you want to get a majority that way, you can't. And honestly, I lean more towards the anti-ban crowd myself in most cases. I don't like that we have so many bans in this gen, even though I agree with most of them. In the past, the only ban decision I vehemently disagreed with like this was Gliscor. I felt Gliscor was a red herring for Spikes. But that might be it. And personally, I would rather keep most bordernline threats than ban them because we all want to be able to play with cool new mons.
Of all the borderline mons we have discussed in the current tier, I only feel strongly on 3 of them. Gouging Fire was one that I thought should have gone. No need to elaborate there. The other one I think should go is Roaring Moon. People say it's just the one set, but no, it's actually capable of more versatility than that. The one I want to keep is Raging Bolt because of how nice it is as a glue mon and how important priority is in the tier. It's also nice that Bolt is slow and that the priority has a common immunity. So yeah, I would ban Moon and keep Bolt if I had any say. I don't.
The rest? I could take or leave pretty much any other real borderline case that has been discussed since the DLC dropped. I didn't care if Kyurem stayed or went. I still don't. Volc is arguably too much in a Tera metagame, but you can say that about a lot of things. Matchup Moth staying or going probably wouldn't effect me much. I don't particularly care if Waterpon stays or goes, either. However, it will probably do the least for the tier if it goes because two other Ogerpon forms exist and would have roles. There is also maybe a chance for physical Aqua Tail Serp to be sort of a discount version. I could keep going, but yeah, I'm probably indifferent to most of it if I haven't said it already.
One recent suggestion I did like was looking at Booster Energy. I don't know if it is a solution, but I tend to want to support it. Something probably needs to be done to curb the power of many of these borderline paradox mons. Since we appear to be keeping Tera and most or all of the borderline mons, a Booster Energy suspect is the first legit thing I have heard besides that which could maybe knock many of the borderline things down a peg.
There just isn't enough agreement on what to do. There are many borderline mons in a threat saturated meta with no cohesive will to ban. Everyone has there own opinions about it and many different and often opposite positions are justifiable. But if you want to get a majority that way, you can't. And honestly, I lean more towards the anti-ban crowd myself in most cases. I don't like that we have so many bans in this gen, even though I agree with most of them. In the past, the only ban decision I vehemently disagreed with like this was Gliscor. I felt Gliscor was a red herring for Spikes. But that might be it. And personally, I would rather keep most bordernline threats than ban them because we all want to be able to play with cool new mons.
Of all the borderline mons we have discussed in the current tier, I only feel strongly on 3 of them. Gouging Fire was one that I thought should have gone. No need to elaborate there. The other one I think should go is Roaring Moon. People say it's just the one set, but no, it's actually capable of more versatility than that. The one I want to keep is Raging Bolt because of how nice it is as a glue mon and how important priority is in the tier. It's also nice that Bolt is slow and that the priority has a common immunity. So yeah, I would ban Moon and keep Bolt if I had any say. I don't.
The rest? I could take or leave pretty much any other real borderline case that has been discussed since the DLC dropped. I didn't care if Kyurem stayed or went. I still don't. Volc is arguably too much in a Tera metagame, but you can say that about a lot of things. Matchup Moth staying or going probably wouldn't effect me much. I don't particularly care if Waterpon stays or goes, either. However, it will probably do the least for the tier if it goes because two other Ogerpon forms exist and would have roles. There is also maybe a chance for physical Aqua Tail Serp to be sort of a discount version. I could keep going, but yeah, I'm probably indifferent to most of it if I haven't said it already.
One recent suggestion I did like was looking at Booster Energy. I don't know if it is a solution, but I tend to want to support it. Something probably needs to be done to curb the power of many of these borderline paradox mons. Since we appear to be keeping Tera and most or all of the borderline mons, a Booster Energy suspect is the first legit thing I have heard besides that which could maybe knock many of the borderline things down a peg.
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Personally I was never bothered from gouging fire.
I just want it banned just to see what will rise in OU.
I don't even use that thing.
I just want it banned just to see what will rise in OU.
I don't even use that thing.
Quickly created a rotom-frost stall team. Probably needs a few revisions.
https://pokepast.es/c4c6cb1e76e02317
https://pokepast.es/c4c6cb1e76e02317
I've been playing low tiers UU/RU or not playing at all since I got the GF suspect requirements, and a "coincidence" I noticed is that, in the absence of Gholdengo and few Booster Energy users in these lower tiers, the diversity of playstyles is bigger. It's easier to find balanced, stall or even Offense that is more controllable than excessive HO mate before dying or having your field full of hazards.
As for Tera, like it or not, is part of the Gen 9 board.
"But such a threat is only broken due to Tera." So it is still broken and should be evaluated, suspected and perhaps banned.
Accepting the current reality instead of waiting for x moment of future development is something that should have stopped from the moment DLC2 was released, to calmly watch the metagame develop and act as necessary.
I'm just amazed at how the results of the surveys have not been in line with the results of the latest suspects.
As for Tera, like it or not, is part of the Gen 9 board.
"But such a threat is only broken due to Tera." So it is still broken and should be evaluated, suspected and perhaps banned.
Accepting the current reality instead of waiting for x moment of future development is something that should have stopped from the moment DLC2 was released, to calmly watch the metagame develop and act as necessary.
I'm just amazed at how the results of the surveys have not been in line with the results of the latest suspects.
favorite is choice band, least favorite is bulky DD
literally nobody has anyone found any legitimate defensive value lugia would provide to the metagame that doesn't already exist, setting aside the fact that nobody likes lugia period. with this in mind i don't think the council should do this at all actuallyOkay hear me out, let's not drop the turtle for obvious reasons, what if we instead dropped a worse version of the turtle in OU? It is called.
Tera Normal Blissey doesn't help at all. Water for Weathers or Fairy for Pult.
I would remove Alomomola's Speed for the slowest possible Wishturn. But it looks cool.
Finchinator and the team that organize suspects.
I think you seriously need to reword survey questions.
people should be encouraged to vote for suspect choices based on overall value added to meta as well as how OP they are.
unfortunately the ideal world of “you do not vote based on broken checking broken” does not apply. Realistically, people are focusing on the value Pokémon add to the meta as well.
this is highly likely because in the current meta you have a lot of “broken checking broken” with the incredible boost of power level of OU since last gen.
if the survey is reworded you get higher odds of something like roaring moon being suspected. You then get after effects like Ogerpon getting a little better and people might see it differently, etc etc.
—
I mean it’s either that or reintroduce other broken things like urshifu rapid!
I think you seriously need to reword survey questions.
people should be encouraged to vote for suspect choices based on overall value added to meta as well as how OP they are.
unfortunately the ideal world of “you do not vote based on broken checking broken” does not apply. Realistically, people are focusing on the value Pokémon add to the meta as well.
this is highly likely because in the current meta you have a lot of “broken checking broken” with the incredible boost of power level of OU since last gen.
if the survey is reworded you get higher odds of something like roaring moon being suspected. You then get after effects like Ogerpon getting a little better and people might see it differently, etc etc.
—
I mean it’s either that or reintroduce other broken things like urshifu rapid!
Oops, forgot to change the tera for blissey. Will do.
I did do this quickly, but that is nice advice.
To be fair its a special defense statstick you can tera to use against special threats. That's kinda huge in dealing with stuff like Volcarona. That being said it's not necessarily the best into a lot of the physical attackers in the tier.
Yes I get no one would like playing against Lugia, but just because we would all hate playing against something doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested. Lugia does genuinely bring some stuff to the table off of its sheer special bulk alone, which can help deal with some strong special threats like Volcarona in the tier as a good example and keep them in line. My point is that a mon like Lugia could be beneficial even if we don't like playing against it, kind of like how we all complained about stuff like Pex in gen 8 and Garg this gen despite both being fine even if we hated playing against it. Not liking playing against a pokemon feels like a dumb reason to not drop it when there could be benefits to letting it in here, especially since it could help keep the dumb amounts of offense in line. We said we didn't like Darkrai before dlc2 and it dropped and was fine (Aside from the whole hypnosis sleep stuff.), same with Deoxys Speed who we all feared would be OP and was fine too, point being Lugia probably deserves the same chance to be tested, even if we would all hate playing against it and it would make games less fun, it is genuinely weak enough for a suspect test. What is op and dumb to play against is very different than prior gens in gen 9 after all.
Genuinely though, I wouldn't mind the option of a potential Lugia test being on the survey.
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That is offset so much by the fact that lugia's bulk can also be used to set itself up and destroy the opposing team with calm mind. A simple set of calm mind, roost, earth power and ice beam would decimate most teams. Reminder, lugia has 90 sp.Attack and 110 speed, which on a mon as bulky as lugia, is insane. Ting lu has 155/125/100 (factroring in vessel of ruin) compared to lugia's 106/130/154. Ting lu technically has better attack, but it doesn't have a even good speed stat, which is definetely in lugia's favour.
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 136-162 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 180-213 (35 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
On the special side, it has more bulk than ting lu.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 130-154 (31.2 - 37%) -- 78.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ting-Lu: 136-160 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
On the physical side, ting lu has more bulk.
Now, you might say "oh, but it has less bulk than ting lu on the physical side, that means it can take physical hits easier". NO
Lugia has a broken ability called multiscale. Rememer dragonite? The mon that can be used to revenge kill most things because it has multiscale to get up a boost? Imagine that, but ten times bulkier.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 65-77 (15.6 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
Sure, that may just be one turn, but lugia does have recovery to get it back. It also has sheer bulk/no 4x weakneses that could potentially break through it.
+6 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 364-430 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
For fucks sake, even +6 ghold shadow ball has a chance to not ohko. HOW IS THAT NOT BULLSHIT.
This is just with max hp, if you want to, you can invest in your defenses.
0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 128-152 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Oh, yeah I don't think ghold is going to have a good day.
0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Reminder, this is at neutral, lugia would absolutely be able to get a calm mind off.
It naturally outspeeds gambit, with it reaching a speed stat of 256 at neutral. With a timid nature and 72 ev's, it can outspeed max speed jolly tusk.
TLDR, this rant is too long. Stop trying to say lugia would be alright in OU, it would not. I would like one day in which we didn't discuss an uber dropping.
No. We are not just gonna let that slide. Lugia is my favorite pokemon. Period.
The most obvious problem with this is you still need the collective will to ban in the suspects. Even if you could get other things suspected, so what? Gouging Fire had over a 4 and it wasn't banned. And sure, people can change there minds. The point is the surveys don't mean much when it comes to actually voting in the suspect.
Never mind agreeing on the right new approach, whatever that may be. I don't even agree that "fixing" the survey in the first place would do anything. People in general have put way too much stock in the survey results. We should simply do less of them and stop overestimating what the results mean.
First of all, I don't know why you would run Ice Beam over Aeroblast when you get a stronger STAB high crit move and Flying/Ground coverage goes crazy. Only the metal birds and the now UU Zapos resist that combo without Tera, and they all tend to want to be more physically bulky than specially bulky.
Second, we already have bulky setup crap like Gouging Fire that even boosts its speed with Dragon Dance. And Proto. If GF is apparently ok, according to enough people, I don't see why Lugia's bulk alone wouldn't be. It has a worse defensive typing, much worse offensive stats, and no speed boosting setup moves. Lugia isn't even very strong on offense. You would need more setup. People in the latest suspect made arguments against the defensive Gouging Fire DD set, saying it needed too many Dragon Dances to get going and this made it vulnerable to counterplay. And this is with Gouging Fire being able to take advantage of immediate speed or power from Proto buffs. Lugia would need multiple Calm Minds and still likely be outsped by the revenge/encore mons or walled by Unaware walls verse its lacking offensive stats.
Same for Zamazenta, which has an insane 138 speed tier for that kind of bulk. Nobody bats an eye for Zama and that speed/bulk combination because it is gen 9.
Personally, I wouldn't drop any Ubers. I don't really even like these discussions about doing so. But let's not pretend like power creep hasn't completely changed our standards. 110 speed in gen 9 is like the old 100 speed mark of past gens. The base stats in general are much greater than ever before.
Lugia would be an interesting addition for some multi-week tournament, but dropping it straight into OU is crazy talk. Even if it can be handled, it is the definition of meta-warping thanks to massive bulk, reliable recovery, and a good setup move.
Sure, but I would prefer Ice Beam due to its higher pp and the fact that it hits a lot more things super effectively.
The difference between both of these examples is that 1. Lugia has so much more bulk. It has Ting-lu levels of bulk, which even gouging fire doesn't have. Then add onto that multiscale and you have a mon that can destroy teams. It has the same speed stat as waterpon. It may have less power, but it is much, much superior in terms of bulk. It's speed is still amazing, sure a bit less amazing this gen, but what mons that are faster than it that can truly threaten it. Darkrai, weavile and dragapult. Two of those can be beaten if you can get a calm mind off.
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 164-195 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lugia will most likely be at full, so half the damage to 20%. If darkrai trys to get cheeky and boost up itself, well then.
+1 0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 187-222 (58.9 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180 SpA Dragapult Hex (65 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia: 78-92 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
Uh, not a lot of damage. Sure, you do get a t-wave off, but lugia has the bulk to calm mind up repeatedly.
Weavile is the only one that can actually outspeed and take on lugia. And that is solely because it is a physical attacker.
I didn't even mention tera, which would make it even more bs.
Even gambit would not be a reliable answer.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 248-292 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For peats sake, if gambit gets the predict wrong, lugia can live the hit and ko it back if gambit is chipped.
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Dark Kingambit: 114-135 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And with earth power, it gets hit even harder if it decides to not tera.
0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm sorry to say, but lugia is simply too bulky, with too much speed and power for that level of bulk. The closest we have to lugia's bulk is ting-lu, who is slow as hell. I would love to not have this conversation, but what about this is balanced? I don't see a reason why it would be balanced.
meta warping hasn't been an issue so far though, Kingambit remains legal and anyone who argues the meta isn't completely warped around his existence is just objectively wrong.
for the record I'm being obtuse I despise lugia and will vehemently argue against it dropping
DaRotomMachine
I COULD BE BANNED!
I don't get why were back at Lugia again.
I get where the reason for the idea of bringing an Uber back to "stabilize" the metagame came from, but Lugia is not it.
If that thing came in OU nobody is ever gonna think of running a passive team ever again.
I get where the reason for the idea of bringing an Uber back to "stabilize" the metagame came from, but Lugia is not it.
If that thing came in OU nobody is ever gonna think of running a passive team ever again.
That's just not true as fat structures have the easiest time against Lugia. Repeat after me, Lugia does not have Stored Power, and it never will have Stored Power.
DaRotomMachine
I COULD BE BANNED!
They're fat but they aren't gonna heal up. And Lugia is even fatter.
Working off decade old memories here god, but I distinctly remember most Gen 6 and Gen 7 discussion being more concerned with the viability rankings and not so much overall meta discussion. I'm actually kind of surprised people are still talking on the forums this much in a post-Discord world.
This is admittedly pure vibes but it seems that player count is super healthy to me if we're still getting this much forum activity.
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DaRotomMachine
I COULD BE BANNED!
Thank You. No more Lugia Talk. Instead, I want to talk about this kind-of niche Raging Bolt set.
Raging Bolt @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 64 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
IVs: 20 Atk
Tera Type: Fairy
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Thunderclap
- Dragon Pulse
- Rising Voltage
Pair this with Pinchurchin and it goes brrr as long as your ooponents ground types are gone
Maybe you could pair this up with rotom-wash to get rid of grounds or thundurus (normal version) if you want a prankster user.
Though I wouldn't recommend using electric terrain strategies, I have tried them and they suck ass. Pinchurchin is a mon though.
Are we seriously doing the Uber drop thing again please stop
Anyway, for the suspect results, yeah I don't think this is surprising at all given how many players were shifting opinions on Gouging in the suspect thread. And for good reason, that mon has adequate counterplay. I feel like people just want things banned for the sake of banning things at this point. I get it, threat saturation does exist, but banning something that simply isn't broken doesn't fix that issue. People will vote DNB on things they don't find broken, pure and simple, regardless of threat saturation or whatever.
And while I think people are overblowing how "bad" the meta is, I don't even think banning Gouging Fire would change the state of it too much. If we really want to change the tier in a significant way, ie in a way that actually fixes the issues people have with it, we need to look at core dynamics in the tier like Kingambit's effect on teambuilding, booster spam fucking up speed tiers or Gholdengo's impact on the hazard meta (regardless of your stance on defoggers it is undeniable Ghold shapes the hazard dynamic of the tier whether it is present in a game or not).
Anyway, for the suspect results, yeah I don't think this is surprising at all given how many players were shifting opinions on Gouging in the suspect thread. And for good reason, that mon has adequate counterplay. I feel like people just want things banned for the sake of banning things at this point. I get it, threat saturation does exist, but banning something that simply isn't broken doesn't fix that issue. People will vote DNB on things they don't find broken, pure and simple, regardless of threat saturation or whatever.
And while I think people are overblowing how "bad" the meta is, I don't even think banning Gouging Fire would change the state of it too much. If we really want to change the tier in a significant way, ie in a way that actually fixes the issues people have with it, we need to look at core dynamics in the tier like Kingambit's effect on teambuilding, booster spam fucking up speed tiers or Gholdengo's impact on the hazard meta (regardless of your stance on defoggers it is undeniable Ghold shapes the hazard dynamic of the tier whether it is present in a game or not).
Lovely writeup. Rotom wash is a mon I've been spamming the daylights out of and I genuinely think it's like an A tier mon in the tier. That said, it's rough matchup into Oger is something I feel a lot so Rotom Mow is a very cool innovation to retain that water resistance with wisp spreading and volt switch. I especially like that last core, I've been using Tusk Gking Washtom Heatran like an addict and Mowtom is a very cool alternative. Definitely gonna try this out.