OM NDBH Suspect #1: crystallized (Terastallization)

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anaconja

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What?
As I mentioned on the original thread we're suspecting Terastallization. If the ban passes Terastal Clause will be added to the banlist.

Why?

Terastallization is a powerful tool, especially when it requires no item to activate. It can be used for offensive, defensive, and even offensive-defensive purposes, to secure unexpected 2HKOs, resist previous super-effective moves, and prevent the opponent from revenge-killing, respectively. It also provides an effective way to self-improof, making possible offensive sets more powerful without the need to secure a slot in case Imposter comes in. All of these aspects significantly affect teambuilding and gameplay - we saw in the kickoff tour how Zygarde-Complete dominated in both usage and win percentage for the former. Because of the reasons given earlier, often strategy is relegated to passive play before someone chooses to terastallize, adding to the argument that it is unhealthy for the meta.

However, there are some arguments to keep Terastallization. The flexibility mentioned in the previous paragraph can be also seen as a positive for the metagame, as it adds a layer of dynamicity with regards to defensive Tera. It can also be used to aid creative teambuilding, as one can choose to rely on Tera to solve potential problems with their team instead of having to use a extra slot to do so. Lastly is the argument that since it's the "generational gimmick" and/or that it is fun and interesting, that it should be kept, though these are both subjective.

How?
  • We will be using the new suspect process laid out by Zarel here (aka no COIL).
  • The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 75 with at least 25 games played.
  • Do so by making a new alt with the prefix “tera”. For example I could register the alt "tera anaconja"
  • The alt must have a creation date on or after Feburary 24, 2023
Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim.

Terstallization will be allowed in the ladder for the duration of this suspect; I would recommend using it as much as you can to get a feel of how they are in the meta and have a good idea of if they are broken/unhealthy or if they are perfectly manageable after all.
Do:
  • Post your proof of reqs and, if you wish, your stance on the matter briefly, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
    • you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. We can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1 example2 example3
    • If you don’t do at least the above, your vote won’t be counted. We will be very strict about this.
  • Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS.

Do NOT:
  • Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof of requirements (This should be posted in the main thread instead)
  • Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)

When?
This suspect period will last until March 11, 2023, 11:59 pm GMT-5. We will try to begin the voting process immediately after and post the Voter ID Thread similar to past suspects.

GLHF!
---
TLDR?
  • 75 GXE after 25 games with a new alt
    • “tera” alt with image proof IN THIS THREAD
  • Terastallization is ALLOWED on ladder
  • DEADLINE: March 11, 2023
tagging Kris to setup the suspect alert
 
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Second here.

Used my main team and funky sun team to play but took a while to get matchups ig

In my opinion I feel tera shouldn't be banned because then there is no unique mechanic or trump card left to people's teams. The surprise turn in battles can be influential leading to tera types being a vital component in teambuilding. The fact that it's only allowed once per match is also quite important towards my stance on this decision. Not just that but with terrastralisation removed a lot of pokemon will find themselves to not be very versatile as they no longer receive the boosted stab they got from tera leading to the metagame being changed a bit too much.

Here is a matchup i got with another tera alt when playing:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1809007446

Turn 12 where i terrastralised my zygarde into a water type to eat the ice beam is a the part i want to emphasise. An extremely unfair play for the opponent that actually changed the flow of the game. Pokemon like zygarde that have gained popularity in the current meta will lose viability and versatility if tera is removed and personally i feel like zygarde is like one of the best defensive pokemon in the meta.

Here is another example where I played the previous #1 player on my main:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1805822667-usohj6ve9mh7get8x9fbrlopcbehcd3pw

In this match tera was completely neglected, he used his tera for a small play with his chansey that got rid of my deoxys that didnt really threaten him much. In this battle you can see that I didn't at all terrastralise any pokemon because it wasn't needed at the time, it shows how terrastralisation isn't as unbalanced as presented as it only provides a defensive advantage in the current metagame. This replay proves that the shift in advantage is only situational leading to my conclusion

Terrastralisation should NOT be banned because the advantage it provides either player is only situational. the extra stab provided for some mons is all nice and good but isn't as great as the defensive advantage. The metagame also revolves around many good mons with bad typing terrastralising into something better. Only the situation can determine whether terrastralisation flips the matchups.

Hope to send any more replays of matchups i get that can relate to the topic.

Edit: some dude wanted the sun team so here it is: https://pokepast.es/21fc65ed50194633
 
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Runo

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W/L could be better but idrc.

I'm not an avid Balanced Hackmons player, but I'm going to be voting ban probably. Playing around tera is hella annoying and unfun since it can flip a lot of good MUs against you. I also feel that Tera is rewarding bad teambuilding since you can do wonky shit like self-improof without having to run the Arceus Plates or Silvally Discs, or Tera into your own type again to hit so obscenely hard that you bypass your usual checks (Ex. being Dragon Energy Miradon hitting Ice Scales Dialga-O for 40%, then turning into Tera Dragon to finish it off), or changing type defensively to reverse sweep or flip a losing game in your favor. Overall I think it forces a lot of games to be a matchup fish and I think it should be banned.

EDIT: Used this wonky ass double Imposter Stall
 
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First reqs ever!

I'm currently leaning towards keeping it, for similar reasons to cta, but I'd also be ok with its ban, I don't really tera my mons too often, and I like the calculus between megas having better stats and non megas being able to tera. Using some of the more common tera abusers makes me understand why it's in contention, so I may change my mind.
 
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not the best W/L but this was my first attempt so we take these! :3

Probably gonna vote do not ban because in those 25 games I think I used my tera about 4 times, and only 2 of those actually helped me win the game. I don't play this tier much so am not super knowledgeable on all the uses tera has here but from what I saw while making reqs most teras seemed to be used offensively rather than defensively and thus weren't super hard to beat as the mon usually had no recovery or was walled by something else after it had clicked tera. If I played more maybe I'd view it differently, but at least for now it didn't seem like a huge issue to me in a tier that already has some crazy things running around that seemed like much bigger threats than tera.
 

RoFnA

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Murphy Lawden

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Happy Pokemon Day everyone!
Ty to Runoisch and Cta for teams.

Voting for ban.
To be fair I haven't really played bh enough but I think that terra should be banned. Matches become mu dependent due to it. It makes offensive mons harder to handle and makes it harder to kill walls.
Ex: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1809759226-7u9wl91fqurwbmle09y4hdqmzn3jyg0pw
This match, without terra water zygarde I would have lost I should be happy.

my writing skill is bad.
 
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Another post from me, btw do we have to attach the req evidence every time we post? imma do it now anyways but here's a battle i had when using my sun team against a player

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1809885771-zfv6ijulo7b1gidr8d38lf1z1imxabfpw

In this battle you see at turn 9 both players trade crits and my chansey dies. Over there I actually had tera ghost on the chansey and could've easily clicked the tera option to eat the hit and risk a speed tie. But instead I misplayed and chose to not tera to keep my extra stab to try and KO the opponent. Because for all i knew there was a great chance of him also clicking oblivion wing hoping for the recovery to benefit him more than me. This goes to show that you need to properly read to click the tera button. You dont just click the button and flip the matchup instantly. Not just that but theres more. Immediately after that, on turn ten when i send out mega gyarados against said yveltal he terrastralised into a flying type. Here is a damage calculator result of how much the extra tera stab affected the damage done.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Triage Tera Flying Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados-Mega: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Triage Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados-Mega: 226-266 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both of these resulted in a guaranteed 2HKO but there is an undeniable difference in the possible amounts of damage done.

If the gyarados had a different set then it would probably KO the yveltal unlike my poision heal gyarados. But on the other hand, what if said gyarados was allowed to terrastralise into a steel type (this could be a viable due to a lot of dragon energy being used in the meta) it could serve as a great pivot and deal with the threat at hand by tanking the hits and attacking in return. But the gyarados isn't allowed to terrastralise. In the same way, what if the also very popular mega slowbro could terrastralise into a fire type and resist both of zacian's stabs cleanly walling it and allowing it to run something over fur coat? Well the trick is that these good pokemon that could make great potential of terrastralisation aren't allowed to terrastralise thus leading to not too many shifts in the situation.

One last point too, proving that the shift in advantage is only situational. If he hadn't gone tera flying at that point how much would the game change? he had that guaranteed 2HKO on both defensive mons and guaranteed OHKO on anything that could threaten the yveltal. Thus allowing me to repeat that terrastralisation doesn't just cleanly flip matchups questioning why it's being suspected again.

Hoping to get more battles on the topic later. Until next time
 
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done, gonna go for ban. there's two ways that tera is broken. the first one, completely flipping matchups right on its head, makes the whole game rely on 50/50s: should i glance this zygarde with my mmx or is it gonna tera water, shrug it off and trap me, getting a free kill? these types of necessary predictions force you to play passively and aren't really fun to make at all either.

the other broken aspect of tera is same-type tera. this is the most braindead one, and that extra oomph is generally enough to 2HKO even furscales users (see: tera dragon mirai, tera fairy flutter, tera steel tinted zacc). not much to say, it's just free kills without having to use your brain.

edit: btw the main thread link leads to the gen 8 ndbh one
 
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Lost one to timer because forgot rip.
I made a big post on Tera here for NatDex and an original post for Gen9. Going to vote for ban. Simply flips too many matchups, strengthens a lot of stuff to unnormal degrees. Some stuff I didn't mention in my posts though:
1. I edited this one in later but NatDex is a meta with super important moves like Spectral. However, Spectral has a type-immunity, while this Normal-type isn't very prevalent both naturally and as a Tera-type, random Tera-Normal setup stuff can matchup fish a win easily if the opponent doesn't have an appropriate Prankster or Core mon (in the case of PH). A less degree can be said for Core Enforcer, which can enable some Poison Heal users to be hard to stop. Lastly Tera-Ghost Imposter can also be incredible in certain matchups, since unlike Shed Shell or Covert Cloak, teams cannot use Knock Off support or offensive improofing (using threat of OHKO) to deal with it.
2. NatDex has very common trapping moves in Anchor Shot and Thousand Waves. These moves make a free turn generated from defensive mons far more deadly as they can just trap and eliminate opposing offensive threats because they didn't predict the tera. In Gen9 the worst you can do generally with a free turn on defensive mons is Knock Off or Nuzzle.
3. NatDex is more or less balanced, with wide variety of offensive and defensive choices, and tools for both sides to perform. This is obviously in contrast to Gen9 where defensive tools are a lot less available, meaning that poor matchups can happen a lot more, which can somewhat justify using Tera to patch up those weaknesses. Without Tera I believe for NatDex you can utilize the wide variety of options to play against even poor matchups.
Also will take this time to address some points I've seen from the DNB side.
Firstly appreciate you using replays
In my opinion I feel tera shouldn't be banned because then there is no unique mechanic or trump card left to people's teams. The surprise turn in battles can be influential leading to tera types being a vital component in teambuilding. The fact that it's only allowed once per match is also quite important towards my stance on this decision. Not just that but with terrastralisation removed a lot of pokemon will find themselves to not be very versatile as they no longer receive the boosted stab they got from tera leading to the metagame being changed a bit too much.
NDBH is one of the most diverse metas available, you can make so many interesting sets that are viable and fun to use. They might not be the best options or the best mons but they can easily still perform well. Look at anaconja's teams for example. There are so many options that you can easily still have that "unique mechanic or trump card" on teams. And do you really think that surprise turn in battles is a healthy aspect? This has been addressed before but this possibility of a "surprise turn" encourages players to play passively. Players will avoid making aggressive plays with their breakers, constantly pivoting in defensive mons or Imposter. Your last point also makes little sense, are you implying that theres a lot of teraable mons in this meta that were not viable in G8 NDBH when there was no tera? Most mons that utilize STAB Tera are still going to be incredible in the meta (Zac-C, bugged PDon, Arceus-Ghost, Miraidon, etc) while the ones that suffer more will still have a definite niche, such as Flutter Mane.
Turn 12 where i terrastralised my zygarde into a water type to eat the ice beam is a the part i want to emphasise. An extremely unfair play for the opponent that actually changed the flow of the game. Pokemon like zygarde that have gained popularity in the current meta will lose viability and versatility if tera is removed and personally i feel like zygarde is like one of the best defensive pokemon in the meta.
This replay highlights exactly why Tera is problematic. With one click of a button Zyg reverses an matchup and immediately eliminates the opposing threat through the aforementioned trapping. Moreover, the opponent has even scouted the set and knew it was Ice Scales Zyg, yet it is still impossible to determine that the Tera-type is Water, because it can easily be something like Fairy, Dark, or Poison and would enable Kyogre to win that matchup. You even said it yourself, its an extremely unfair play for the opponent. Why should we keep this "extremely unfair play" enabling mechanic in the meta?
Regarding Zyg, you are absolutely correct. Zyg is absolutely the best defensive pokemon in the meta, and Zyg will lose viability and versality if Tera is removed. However, that does not at all mean that Zyg's viability plummets. If you check the previous gen thread, you will notice that Zyg is ranked solidly in A, and this is in a meta without Tera, with an unnerfed Glacial Lance (Zac predominantly uses Magical Torque which is far far less threatening, FC Zyg eats 2 Band SoR Torques which is hilarious), threats like Ash Greninja that Zyg is not the best at handling, as well as an absence of stuff like Covert Cloak (Zyg is a good user of it and is strong against it since Thousand Waves bypasses it) and Ability Shield (Zyg good user). I can assure you that Zyg will still remain as likely the best defensive pokemon in the meta, being immensely splashable and blanket checking/midgrounding so many threats.
In addition, I would personally argue that with Tera allowed, Zyg is very borderline broken and I don't think its a stretch to potentially see tiering action on it if Tera stays. Stuff like Water or Fairy type Zyg bolstered by FC, AV, or Scales is absurdly difficult to force out or deal with at all. It is basically an auto-include on every team since it can perform any role and it can be argued that you are at a disadvantage for not using it. Zyg is so good at its role that its eclipsing the majority of other defensive mons. Zyg completely warps the offensive meta around it. Everything already basically needed a strong super effective move against it and now need to consider bringing coverage for the common Tera-types it runs. Yet types like Water and Fairy have such few weaknesses, and in the case of Fairy very poor moves to use.
In this match tera was completely neglected, he used his tera for a small play with his chansey that got rid of my deoxys that didnt really threaten him much. In this battle you can see that I didn't at all terrastralise any pokemon because it wasn't needed at the time, it shows how terrastralisation isn't as unbalanced as presented as it only provides a defensive advantage in the current metagame. This replay proves that the shift in advantage is only situational leading to my conclusion
I don't know about "didn't really threaten much" when your Deoxys 2HKOs at worse their entire team with prediction. Also it can be claimed that the defensive potential of Tera is more uncompetitive (not necessarily stronger) because its actually a lot easier to play against STAB Tera since you can just always consider a boosted damage output while with defensive Tera the free turn it generates can be immense.
For example, consider say Specs Miraidon, a player can always prepare for the Tera Electric or Tera Dragon power by using something like Scales Dialga-O + hazard/chip pressure to weaken Dragon Energy + a Fairy-type like Zacian-C. However say against a PH Arceus-Fairy with known Fairy/Fire coverage and Tera Fire. The player cannot utilize their offensive Steel-move Zacian-C to offensively check this since it can Tera Fire anytime, and defensive checking is also more difficult since Tera Fire also provides a useful power boost on top of defensive utility.
The metagame also revolves around many good mons with bad typing terrastralising into something better.
But how this is more balanced? Isn't it better to have high bst mons be balanced out by less ideal typings (such as Zyg) and lower bst mons but with strong typings (such as Mega Swampert). Mega Mewtwo Y is in fact a perfect example, if MMY could Tera it would be absolutely busted, since it would be able to get rid of its very poor typing while retaining its absurd stats.
In this battle you see at turn 9 both players trade crits and my chansey dies. Over there I actually had tera ghost on the chansey and could've easily clicked the tera option to eat the hit and risk a speed tie. But instead I misplayed and chose to not tera to keep my extra stab to try and KO the opponent. Because for all i knew there was a great chance of him also clicking oblivion wing hoping for the recovery to benefit him more than me. This goes to show that you need to properly read to click the tera button. You dont just click the button and flip the matchup instantly.
But how is this a "misplay" and how is this showing that you need to properly read to use Tera. If opponent clicked Tera-Flying immediately the neutral OWing does the same damage as super effective Thunder Cage, and regardless without the crit the 1v1 is determined by speed ties (even with crit if you moved 2nd first turn then 1st second turn you win). This replay doesn't really show anything since you didn't bring any Triage checks with Lucky Punch Imposter being your best check.
Well the trick is that these good pokemon that could make great potential of terrastralisation aren't allowed to terrastralise thus leading to not too many shifts in the situation.
The thing is these aren't very good pokemon. The ability to Tera on defensive mons is such a massive benefit. One can see this being reflected through the kickoff tour stats. Dondozo went 5-0 while Mega Slowbro went 6-9. Yet Mega Slowbro sports more physical bulk (on a physical wall) and far less passivity. Dondozo being able to Tera gives it so much more flexibility to soft check stuff or emergency cripple a threat. While the VRs aren't posted yet you can tell that the inability to tera is a massive detriment (see Deoxys-A's soaring viability compared to last gen, and all the defensive Megas being worse).
One last point too, proving that the shift in advantage is only situational. If he hadn't gone tera flying at that point how much would the game change? he had that guaranteed 2HKO on both defensive mons and guaranteed OHKO on anything that could threaten the yveltal. Thus allowing me to repeat that terrastralisation doesn't just cleanly flip matchups questioning why it's being suspected again.
Again this was a specific game where that Yveltal had a naturally incredible matchup. But imagine a better matchup for you where you had something like non-Band Zacian-C that would check it. With Tera-Flying though Yveltal can 2HKO Zacian-C while the only move that Zacian-C can potentially OHKO back after Life Orb recoil is Pixilate Population Bomb.
but from what I saw while making reqs most teras seemed to be used offensively rather than defensively and thus weren't super hard to beat as the mon usually had no recovery or was walled by something else after it had clicked tera. If I played more maybe I'd view it differently, but at least for now it didn't seem like a huge issue to me in a tier that already has some crazy things running around that seemed like much bigger threats than tera.
I would suggest you look at Zygarde-Complete as the best example of how strong defensive Tera. Obviously this is on a very specific and outlying example but the same can be said for stuff like FC Lunala flipping matchup against Dark and Ghost coverages or the PH Arceus-Fairy Tera Fire to avoid the Steel-moves and V-creates thrown at it. Also I think almost all the crazy things running around in this tier are more or less abusers of Tera. Deoxys-A and Zacian-C become incredibly deadly, Zyg-C becomes unkillable, any offensive mon can become semi-self-improof.
I will vote do not ban because terra is funny
No terra is not funny :)

Edit: Also encourage anyone that wants to discuss further to join disc server
 
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Completed my first suspect test (in pain and suffering), defintely could have had a better W-L especially since I threw two winnable games but oh well.
Thoughts on terastalization: Surprisingly, Terastalization is not balanced in either hackmons formats because it scews normally winnable matchups. A surprise tera type could also change the momentum and the result of a game easily. Offensive terastalization is not as broken but allows a big threat to the defensive core of a team to break through more easily. I am defintely not a hackmons player but that’s my general thoughts when it comes to this.
 
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