Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

Blaziken is much more easily revenge killed, with a lot more options of checking it like priority moves, Unaware Pokemon, and just it's recoil damage killing its self. Espathra's massive bulk + Stored Power + tera makes it much harder to stop. Blaziken def wouldn't be seeing a suspect test anytime soon
 
they said blaziken in bwou tbf
I think you rushed to defend him too soon, man.

I think he might have been referring to Mega Blaziken. Why would else would he say Blaziken can be looked at after this meta calms if he was referring to BW OU when BW OU has nothing to do with NatDex? I really believe he's talking about Mega Blaziken.
 
um mega blaziken already got the boot earlier this year, so i don't think that what they were talking about...
Well, this is NatDex, so I think he's referring to dropping Mega Blaziken down for another suspect test. It makes no sense for him to talk about freeing Blaziken in BW OU in the NatDex thread, so that's how I came to that conclusion.
 
talk about freeing Blaziken in BW OU in the NatDex thread
I'm pretty sure he was saying how espathra right now is similar to blaziken in BW OU before they banned it.
A mon that was banned for similar reasons on account of having very few answers. Blaziken probably can be looked at later when this meta calms.
Here he said that blaziken was banned for having few answers like espathra, and he wants to suspect test blaziken after the "meta calms". prob not to drop mega blaz down, as he was literally saying it was banned for being broken. I assume that as the tone in his comment sounds like he doesn't like espathra and blaz, so yeah
 
But why would anyone talk about suspect testing Blaziken in BW OU in the Nat Dex thread? I get that he is drawing parallels with Espathra in Gen 9 and Blaziken in Gen 5, but it is totally random to ask for a Blaziken suspect in BW OU in a NatDex thread.
 
Okay let me clear this up. There seems to be a misunderstanding.

I'm not calling for a Blaziken suspect test in Nat Dex, let alone other gens. Not one for Blaziken or for a retest of its Mega at this time. I'm just drawing comparison between Blaziken and Espathra. They have some similarities in that they are Speed Boost mons that can become wincons if you don't have answers to them since they don't have common counters. And as such, the way we should look at Espathra could be similar to how we look at Blaziken.

The reason I brought it up is simply to highlight that it's a pretty powerful mon with some good things going for it which means its a bit of a sleeper pick with new toy syndrome in gear. I bet somebody could write a more detailed analysis on how viable it is in Nat Dex OU at this point. I guess I was just saying that it's a mon worth highlighting, not that it deserves banning. Maybe it is fine. Maybe it's not. But while we are focusing on Espathra, let's focus on that before addressing Blaziken.

Now.... something ELSE I DO want to highlight is Crawdaunt.

:ss/Crawdaunt:

I can't believe I dismissed this thing in my rain analysis. What was I thinking? Because boy howdy is this thing a terror when you get it on the field. Aqua Jet/Crabhammer + Tera Water + Adaptability STAB + Rain + Choice Band + Adamant Nature is.....wow. That's just a lot of power. Here are some calculations that I wanted to share to demonstrate the point.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 172-202 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 400-472 (100.2 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 146-172 (46 - 54.2%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian in Rain: 277-326 (76.5 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Rain: 425-502 (112.4 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Rain: 214-252 (50.9 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I could add more but I think you get the idea. This is a menace and a half. Yes, it has poor speed, but even the slightest chip damage on the other team makes this a dangerous Tera abuser that is an honorable mention for rain. Plus, you can add this mon to trick room teams. Very cool.
 
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Because boy howdy is this thing a terror when you get it on the field. Aqua Jet/Crabhammer + Tera Water + Adaptability STAB + Rain + Choice Band + Adamant Nature is.....wow.
I wouldn't recommend terastalyzing Crawdaunt because of the strange interactions it has with Adaptability. Tera STAB with Adaptability gets a 2.25x boost, which is only a 12.5% increase in power. Meanwhile you'll lose the Adaptability boost for Crawdaunt's Dark STAB so those moves get their power decreased by 25%.
 
alright lets talk about the funniest combo to grace pokemon : the shedshed strat.

Shed #1: Shed tail

Shed tail is a move that basically baton passes a substitute to a teammate for 50% of your health. Only available onl Cyclizard, which gets regenerator as a nice way of letting it use the move.

Shed#2: Shedinja

With air baloon, electric-tera shed has no weaknesses, so only passive damage can kill it.

Fusion shed:
Substitute is a move that shedinja, for obvious reasons, is not supposed to be able to use. By passing it a substitute, you eliminate status conditions and even ditto shenanigans from the equation. The only way to kill a substitute shedinja are:
Setting up hazards beforehand: you wont always, and cyclizard even gets rapid spin.
Sandstorm: Very specific
Hail, the move: I dont know if this sets up old hail or snow, but if it sets up old hail, its a stupidly specific counter.
Having pokemon that can sit on whatever offensive moves shed has and pp stall it: shed can fit a TON of pp on its sets, and between sd+ghost stab, sd+bug stab, toxic, weird coverage, and spamming random special moves, you probably wont have a hard wall.
Mold breaker: We all love the weird hammer girl, but thats not really a reasonable solution
Infiltrator+status: Literally just wisphex pult.

There is no reason anything like this should exist, but for the week it does, its super funny
Shed Tail is also available on orhtworm, but it's isn't used often because of the lack of regenerator
 
I initially wanted to discuss Cyclizar's ban as I find that to be one of the enablers of Espathra's presence in OU. But hopefully that one gets its suspect test sooner or later.

Another major issue in OU I wanted more discussion about is Annihilape. Its ghost-fighting coverage is on lock for minimum neutral coverage against the entire metagame until Hisuian Zoroark comes. Its stats make it decently bulky to tank any unboosted attacks you can name. It's a wallbreaking machine, with tools such as Rest, Taunt, Bulk Up, Drain Punch, and Rage Fist to punish utility attacks. This is further compounded with terastalization to more easily secure a damage mitigator against its usual threats like Tornadus and Tapu Lele. With support from the aforementioned Cyclizar, it receives at least another turn or a safe switch-in to snowball into an unstoppable threat.

Primarily, what bothers me the most about it is its existence as a Ghost type with the ability Defiant, punishing both of the most common methods of mitigating hazard spam: Defog and Rapid Spin.

How do you guys feel about Annihilape knowing this? Are there any solid responses to Annihilape available that I was unaware of? I'm interested in seeing how the community feels about responding to its presence.
 
How do you guys feel about Annihilape knowing this?
It's overrated.

110/80/90 looks like decent bulk in a vaccuum, but it doesn't play up due to a defensive typing that lacks useful resists. The immunities are actually bad for ape because it wants to take damage. Offensive Pokemon don't have problems 2HKOing it with neutral STAB moves, and it begins each game weak with 50 and 75 BP attacks.

More on that bulk. Ape wants to invest in Attack and Speed, but it has to invest in HP and more often than not, also invest in Def or SpD. Close Combat gives it some immediate offensive presence but the defense drops also force it out. Most of the Unaware walls, even Clefable, also beat it easily. Ferrothorn can pressure it because it will tend to not use Rage Fist on a Fightng-weak Pokemon with Iron Barbs, meaning Knock Off/Leech Seed forces it to Rest or use Drain Punch in desperation.

The best set imo uses Fightium Z. The Z-Crystal lets it switch into Knock Offs and Z-Bulk Up gives a +2 to Attack, meaning after one turn of setup you have 100 BP Rage Fist and/or Close Combat that can actually hurt stuff. Still, it's not great and tends to be dead weight.

I think Annihilape is a noob killer, like K Rool in Smash. It filters players who keep brainlessly attacking it with Garchomp or Lando-T. A good team should have a Flying-type with Flying-type STAB to destroy it, or just use a setup sweeper. Oh, and Garchomp can SD aganst an ape player easily because Bulk-Up sets are slower than SD boosts and Annihilape is wary of punching into Rough Skin.
 
Thank you for the reply, I've been getting mixed messages about Annihilape and I'm pleased to see an alternative perspective on the issue.
Still, I had some objections to raise about the observations presented.

110/80/90 looks like decent bulk in a vaccuum, but it doesn't play up due to a defensive typing that lacks useful resists. The immunities are actually bad for ape because it wants to take damage. Offensive Pokemon don't have problems 2HKOing it with neutral STAB moves, and it begins each game weak with 50 and 75 BP attacks.
It still has notable advantages. It punishes U-Turn and Rapid Spin, has a stealth rock resist, has full neutral coverage, and can and does terastalize when the defensive typing is an issue. If it runs into something it can't beat, it'll escape for later, bringing its boosts with it.

Most of the Unaware walls, even Clefable, also beat it easily.
-
Ferrothorn can pressure it because it will tend to not use Rage Fist on a Fightng-weak Pokemon with Iron Barbs, meaning Knock Off/Leech Seed forces it to Rest or use Drain Punch in desperation.
Even if Clefable preferred Unware over Magic Guard, it's out of the meta right now.
Dozo, Dirge, and Clod loses 1v1 against Taunt + Tera Water, unable to deal a heavy blow after Tera, and unable to curse, will-o-wisp, or recover, respectively, after taunt.
None are solid checks/counters. None will enjoy boosted rage fists.
Ferrothorn could inconvenience it with knock off against the leftovers it tends to rely on. But it's not winning 1v1 against the taunt-bulk up set either, not with damage mitigated from a +1 drain punch.
I know this, because I have used all of the above against Annihilape on ladder before. And At least 1 had to be sacked, every time.

I really have tried to explore responses to Annihilape. None are solid:
After a single rage fist boost, the Ghost-weak mons like Lele and Dragapult can't switch in.
Tornadus-T's Bleakwind or Hurricane is a gamble with that accuracy, and on Defensive Tera-Water or Fairy, is ~4hko after leftovers. Meaning it's boosted.
Pex is another L, on Rest sets Annihilape is happy to be tested on scald burns, and on Taunt sets it tends to kill or force out Pex on boosted Rage fist before a burn happens. In both cases, Water Tera means it does basically nothing.
Urshifu-RS to break through Bulk ups, once again, doesn't work on Tera-Water without prior damage (which tends to mean the Annihilape is boosted).
And even if it Tera-Waters, a Modest Specs Kyurem Freeze Dry can't kill from full.

You're welcome to call it noob killer as you like, but when combined with Cyclizar, it can and will punch holes in teams before you can force it out. Constant prediction is a necessity to avoid losing any mons in the process of fighting one.
 
It still has notable advantages. It punishes U-Turn and Rapid Spin, has a stealth rock resist, has full neutral coverage, and can and does terastalize when the defensive typing is an issue. If it runs into something it can't beat, it'll escape for later, bringing its boosts with it.
The meta has better ways of punishing U-Turn: hazards, contact-damage abilities and Rocky Helmet. Yes, ape x4 resists U-Turn, but U-Turn is going to bring in something that threatens ape out. When instead one could have inflicted 16% damage with Rocky Helmet. With rocks up, that's 25% damage for each U-Turn and such passive damage even wears Mega Scizor down.

Dozo, Dirge, and Clod loses 1v1 against Taunt + Tera Water, unable to deal a heavy blow after Tera, and unable to curse, will-o-wisp, or recover, respectively, after taunt.

None are solid checks/counters. None will enjoy boosted rage fists.
Ferrothorn could inconvenience it with knock off against the leftovers it tends to rely on. But it's not winning 1v1 against the taunt-bulk up set either, not with damage mitigated from a +1 drain punch.
I know this, because I have used all of the above against Annihilape on ladder before. And At least 1 had to be sacked, every time.
Taunt ruins any slow Pokemon that relies on status moves. No way around that. But running Taunt is risky, since it means ape is shy of switching in due to the risk of heavy damage or status. Rage Fist incentivizes aggressive switching so the strategies conflict.

Almost any Pokemon with an invested, neutral 100+ BP STAB move threatens a 2HKO on Annihilape - that includes offensive Garchomp, Lando-T and Torn-T. So I don't consider it a good tera target, as hitting it hard is the simplest way to dispatch it.

I really have tried to explore responses to Annihilape. None are solid:
After a single rage fist boost, the Ghost-weak mons like Lele and Dragapult can't switch in.
But Gholdengo can

+2 252 Atk Annihilape Rage Fist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 314-372 (83 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not even Def+ Gholdengo, just HP. Taunt does not work on Gholdengo, so the safest tactic is to eat the hit and Trick scarf or specs. After which switch in something with a punishing defensve ability or tera Normal.

Trick is why I recommend the Z-Move, as it means Gholdengo either dies or is forced out since it's choice locked.

You're welcome to call it noob killer as you like, but when combined with Cyclizar, it can and will punch holes in teams before you can force it out. Constant prediction is a necessity to avoid losing any mons in the process of fighting one.
That's a Cyclizar issue.
 
How do you guys feel about Annihilape knowing this? Are there any solid responses to Annihilape available that I was unaware of? I'm interested in seeing how the community feels about responding to its presence.
Annihilape is a very busted mon, forcing people to have to build their team around stopping it. Passive mons get completely shut down by either the Rest or Taunt set, thus making them unreliable answers. As such, faster, offensive answers are a must to overwhelm it.

The best answers to it, based on personal experience, are Toxic Tank Chomp (max speed oc) and Nasty Plot Torn-T with Flyinium Z. Chomp provides a fast toxic to threaten ape + Spikes support while NP Torn uses it as setup fodder (assuming rage fist is not boosted) + can ohko ape even after it teras to water:

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 415-489 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 0 Atk Tera Water Annihilape Rage Fist vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 147-174 (49 - 58%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

IMO we need to suspect test Ape as it's very unhealthy paired with Tera, as it can almost always soak up a hit (wink wink), and turns offensive answers like Mega Diancie into set-up fodder for rage fist.
 

adem

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Annihilape is a very busted mon, forcing people to have to build their team around stopping it. Passive mons get completely shut down by either the Rest or Taunt set, thus making them unreliable answers. As such, faster, offensive answers are a must to overwhelm it.
idk about that boss, i dont think anyone builds their entire team around stopping ape, atp i think thats a skill issue. there are also a good bit of passive, and “passive” mons that deal with it well and arent just shut down by taunt, and rest is a bleh set anyways that loses vs all the fat and sucks vs most normal cplay anyways, would not recommend using rest ever (also shut down by koko :sob: )

The best answers to it, based on personal experience, are Toxic Tank Chomp (max speed oc) and Nasty Plot Torn-T with Flyinium Z. Chomp provides a fast toxic to threaten ape + Spikes support while NP Torn uses it as setup fodder (assuming rage fist is not boosted) + can ohko ape even after it teras to water:

+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Annihilape: 415-489 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 0 Atk Tera Water Annihilape Rage Fist vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 147-174 (49 - 58%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
I dont see why tankchomp needs to be max speed at all, seems like a very weird requirement, since chomp literally outspeeds all ape without any investment (bar like lead / scarf which arent threats the same way bu is and much much much less of a problem to any team). A lot of other answers too, do the same with lando but with minor speed investment, bulky rotom w (with decent speed invest, i already creep like around 230 with it anyways so im not rlly going out of my way, tox on stuff like torn (not just np z), when it teras to something like water, shit like koko now rks it cleanly (from my own experience this has been a huge issue for it). I kinda just listed some off the top of my head, there are loads more for all team structures, and even not having dedicated cplay works lol since mon is v easy to pressure and people overestimate apes bulk and damage output, especially without rage fist boosts.

IMO we need to suspect test Ape as it's very unhealthy paired with Tera, as it can almost always soak up a hit (wink wink), and turns offensive answers like Mega Diancie into set-up fodder for rage fist.
ehh idk if i would call mega diancie an offensive answer lol, even without tera moon does like 70, its quite poor, much better choices. anyways, from my own experiences on both ends of the mon, its very easily worn down, super reliant on tera, and people overestimate its damage output, and is very overhyped vs bulkier teams that are finding more and more ways to adapt to it as we speak.


a bit late rn so cba to address the other posts, but Professor Hal you are right that a lot of the mentioned “answers” that were provided are extremely poor, some not even answers (lol ferrothorn??? literally setup fodder), but there are a lot of hard and soft answers that exist, id be happy to provide more than ones ive already listed (but in discord pls i am NOT making another post) and im sure that i can find ones that suit your need.
 
There are a lot of hard and soft answers that exist, id be happy to provide more than ones ive already listed (but in discord pls i am NOT making another post) and im sure that i can find ones that suit your need.
Can you please, idk what actually checks ape hard enough to it not being enough of a threat by it's presence alone making a large portion of a teams offense significantly less potent due to it essentially blocking most weak attacks? Rn, I just use helm tang knock its lefties and pray. Ik ho's can overwhelm it and stall can run weird answers, thinking smth more along the lines of stuff that fits on balance and bo.
 

Sputnik

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Espathra has been banned!

How do you guys think this will effect the meta?
Honestly I don't expect the standard structures for builds to change that much, the biggest casualty is probably Clod which was probably the most hardcore answer but its stocks have been falling outside of that role for a bit now, I imagine the few that were using Mandi will prolly stop using that too. Other "answers" like Ting-Lu, Tera Steel Hippo, and SD Gambit are pretty good regardless so those builds won't prolly change that much, and Heatran can stop running Roar as much now too which is nice.

The main things that benefit are mons that didn't like HO being as effective as it was, which mostly comes down to slower boosters. Biggest beneficiaries are Ape and Garg imo, as they could sometimes struggle to get going against Espa HOs (especially Ape) but do very well into the rest of the meta. Other slightly less stupid breakers and boosters like Kyu, MMedi, and Kartana get better too since Espa HOs just naturally applied huge amounts of pressure to these mons. Main thing to watch out for in this new meta is Garg imo, mon forces progress insanely well into most teams and people are figuring out how to build fat effectively in the Tera meta. Honestly I don't expect non-HO team structures to actually change that much except for branching out to some other defensive Grounds maybe, but it will be very nice to not have to consider how exactly your gonna cover the bird and its teammates anymore.
 
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about15guys

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Espathra has been banned!

How do you guys think this will effect the meta?
HO teams'll get a little worse, imo it's still going to be a very good archetype moving forward since it's still got insane presence with options like screens koko or cyc just existing but losing one of its foremost special threats should isn't doing it any favors strength-wise

(also garganacl fans winning!)
 
a lot of the mentioned “answers” that were provided are extremely poor, some not even answers (lol ferrothorn??? literally setup fodder)
Ferrothorn isn't a check and isn't intended to be one. It can, however, annoy Rest Annihilape variants due to Leech Seed + KO removing the Chesto Berry. Ferrothorn being Fighting-weak, having Iron Barbs and Annihilape being seeded means the opponent is never going to click Rage Fist, so there's little danger in switching in a Fighting resist after the second Bulk-Up.

Can you please, idk what actually checks ape hard enough to it not being enough of a threat by it's presence alone making a large portion of a teams offense significantly less potent due to it essentially blocking most weak attacks? Rn, I just use helm tang knock its lefties and pray. Ik ho's can overwhelm it and stall can run weird answers, thinking smth more along the lines of stuff that fits on balance and bo.
Ape does not have traditional checks. No Pokemon bar tera Fairy Garganacl resists both of its STAB moves. But teams can wear it down with indirect damage or just strong STAB attacks.

Tank Garchomp running Toxic cripples most ape sets. It's not really a check, but the Annihilape will be weak enough that something else can finish it off easily.

Good tera selection also helps in a pinch. I run Flying Gholdengo to surprise Ground-types, but Flying resists Fighting and removes Gholdengo's Ghost weakness.
 
Now with Espathra gone I want to give my thoughts on what I consider to be the most broken elements in the metagame right now.

First off we have Zamazenta. Tera fighting CB Close Combat is incredibly tough to switch into, further compounded by its diverse movepool allowing it to hit every fighting resist for super effective damage. Its limited number of checks is reduced even more coupled with pursuit support, trapping Psychic and Ghost types for it and allowing it to spam CC even more freely. Its solid natural bulk and incredible speed tier also means revenge killing can also be a difficult task. As if that was not enough it can also use different sets like Howl to avoid being danced around or Iron Defense Body Press which makes it quite tough to take down.
Secondly we have rain. With the addition of Floatzel and terastalyzation rain teams are stronger than ever before. On the defensive side very little is able to stand up to repeated tera boosted rain boosted water attacks, having to rely on water immunities or bulky water resists, which need to hold Utility Umbrella to be able to switch in continuously.
So what defensive Pokemon can really stand up to the water assault? Regenerator Pokemon with Utility Umbrella like Toxapex or Amoonguss, water immunities like Vaporeon or Gastrodon or very bulky water resists like Dondozo. While this does seem like a large enough list they do all have serious problems, as they either fear coverage, are pressured by hazards, lose to other common rain abusers or are just generally bad outside of checking rain. Special mention does need to go to Rotom-Wash. While it struggles to switch in it does threaten every rain abuser with electric moves or will-o-wisp. Offense isn't much better off, as nothing is able to outspeed the swift swimmers under rain and they lack the bulk to live a hit. Their counterplay seems almost entirely limited to priority attacks.
All and all I think both Zamazenta and rain are unreasonably difficult to account for both in the teambuilder and in battle due to their sheer power and very limited answers and would support a ban for both. For rain I'd say probably a damp rock ban would be the most effective.
 

hidin

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Talked about Annihilape in this video; was recorded late at night so there may be little slip-ups, so be sure to let me know if you spot any! Otherwise, I think its pretty thorough, so I hope you enjoy!
ban the goddamn monkey now
 
Were the base swords also released with updated movepools? Tera Blast Terrakion will be interesting to test.

My first impression is that Iron Leaves sucks, while Walking Wake is a more balanced version of Iron Bundle.
 

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