Losing Iron Head and most all of its physical coverage sucks, but Jirachi’s movepool is still fantastic. When you get to Veilstone, you have a Pokémon with 100 SpAtk rocking Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, and Thunderbolt with a gigantic pile of resistances before your second badge. Mew is crazy cool, but being a Steel-type and resisting like half of the game as a result is so ridiculous. Things like Magnezone in B2W2 went crazy with early Steel typing and I can see Jirachi breaking the game in half with that. All you need is like a Gyarados and you have a ridiculous dream team that can shred through the game effortlessly.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
SPOILERS! Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl Data Dumps
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
We can only hope, my fellow Tyranitar enjoyer. We can only hope that it gets the desperate attention it deserves over overrated sellouts like BEEDRILL.
I wouldn't agree with that, unfortunately. The loss of the Eeveelutions and what appears to be Gliscor are HUGE losses. And I don't think the "Pokémon gained" do enough to make up for that.
And while some of the Pokémon buffs are nice, it's not like stuff like Houndoom and Scyther were infeasible before (plus, do you really want to be babysitting a Swinub earlier?). It really comes down to the lost vs. gained to me and I think Platinum honestly takes the edge here.
Rotom, Porygon-Z and Tropius (and potentially Gliscor but that's TBC) are big losses, but at the same time we get Honchkrow and we do NOT get the Eeveelutions.
It's indeed a good gain.
Last edited:
Well, first of all I do disagree that it's a net gain -- Ursaring is kinda fun, as are Jirachi and Mew if you can get them; but I'm not exactly singing Purugly or Skuntank's praises here when we haven't got Porygon-Z. I also think the tally misses multiple things in the 'lost' category and simplifies things in the 'gained' category -- for the former, you're also missing the final evolutions of Gliscor, Rhyperior and Dusknoir (not that the pre-evolutions are terribly bad, especially with Eviolite around; but it's still noticeable), and also misses Rotom and Spiritomb completely. For the 'gained' category you also really have to note that half of these are version exclusives and I'd argue Pearl owners are missing out on a lot; and also missing from the table is that Scyther, Electabuzz, Magmar and Gligar are version-exclusive. I'm not exactly going to argue that version exclusives are bad or anything, but if you are making a direct comparison to what's available in Platinum, you must absolutely note that some of Platinum's options have been split between versions. And, of course; Jirachi and Mew are only available if you have save data from other games -- and that's gonna be easy for some people, I have a friend who owns LGPE so I just got the SwSh save file bonuses that way; but it's not something available to everyone.
Most noticeably though, the "pre-existing options that got significantly nerfed" section is... very incomplete. It's been noted for a few days now that multiple Pokémon's movesets are based on their SwSh movesets where the clear intention is to use them in postgame, meaning pre-60 levels leaves them with some pretty dire choices. Luxray is still kinda bad, and Weavile is left without any significant ice moves. I am definitely forgetting most of it, but this is really not a fair comparison and I'm sure someone else could bring up a lot of pokemon that are worse off now.
To put another ball in your court however, I would note how absolutely huge the TM options in Veilstone are since you can now get Psychic, Ice Beam, Flamethrower and Thunderbolt very easily and cheaply; which should be a massive highly appreciated buff to a lot of Pokémon.
I... have to again question you here! Chimchar has maybe been slowed down slightly - admittedly, more than I ever expected them to change stuff - but that's still exactly the same idle pose; and everything else is down to lighting and shaders. I think the fact that everything here is so minor that it's hard to tell if anything is changed should be a sure sign to you that there are no real changes. This isn't even Gen 7 Glameow hereView attachment 385011View attachment 385010
Oshawott's mouth is now fully modeled as opposed to a texture.
View attachment 385015View attachment 385016
A bit harder to see but Burmy's eyes "pop out" a bit on the right, meaning it is now modeled too
Chimchar got a new Idle animation
View attachment 385024View attachment 385023
Buizel's eye and mouth are now fully modeled as well
View attachment 385026View attachment 385027
Crobat's eye and mouthhave recieved more depth as well
in general the model updates don't seem to be huge - mostly adding depth to the mons - but they're definitely there
Despite my love for Porygon and Gliscor this may actually be my biggest disappointment with the availability. Allowing Sylveon and the Alolan/Galarian forms ala LGPE would have been awesome; it wouldn't have dramatically changed teambuilding like Rattata and Grimer did to no-dark-types-Kanto but it would still have been a bunch of fun to see Alolan Raichu and Galarian Rapidash and Sylveon in Sinnoh
Makes me think there should be some endgame boss fights that ban items, akin the online play. I guess that was the point of Battle Frontier tbh.
I watched the Cynthia battle clip that one of you uploaded onto this thread. Here's my thoughts on it.
I've been the kind of person for a while who believes that a game can be great and easy at the same time. I.E, a game doesn't have to be difficult to be good. That being said, a rewarding challenge can go a long way. For me, the question becomes "what counts as a rewarding challenge as opposed to a poorly designed challenge?" Design wise, I think this battle works pretty well for what it's trying to achieve. The AI and advanced training techniques compensate for Cynthia's lower levels than the player character. However, I can't safely say that this battle addresses some of the issues of Pokémon trainers at their core.
Sure, this fight looks intimidating at first, but the player would have had the entirety of the game to prepare at this point, and the gaps between higher levels are statistically much less important than the gaps between lower levels. There's also a few things coming from both Cynthia and the person playing the game that, if I had control, I would have done differently multiple times each. More importantly, as a game gets older, more and more people start to understand how to complete a certain challenge. From everything I've gathered, Cynthia's Garchomp has no such direct counterplay options without utilizing overpowered techniques that Cynthia herself can't use; if you use items the fight is trivial, but if you don't you get absolutely shredded.
I've been the kind of person for a while who believes that a game can be great and easy at the same time. I.E, a game doesn't have to be difficult to be good. That being said, a rewarding challenge can go a long way. For me, the question becomes "what counts as a rewarding challenge as opposed to a poorly designed challenge?" Design wise, I think this battle works pretty well for what it's trying to achieve. The AI and advanced training techniques compensate for Cynthia's lower levels than the player character. However, I can't safely say that this battle addresses some of the issues of Pokémon trainers at their core.
Sure, this fight looks intimidating at first, but the player would have had the entirety of the game to prepare at this point, and the gaps between higher levels are statistically much less important than the gaps between lower levels. There's also a few things coming from both Cynthia and the person playing the game that, if I had control, I would have done differently multiple times each. More importantly, as a game gets older, more and more people start to understand how to complete a certain challenge. From everything I've gathered, Cynthia's Garchomp has no such direct counterplay options without utilizing overpowered techniques that Cynthia herself can't use; if you use items the fight is trivial, but if you don't you get absolutely shredded.
Well... you can choose to not use items.
It is a Pokémon game after all. Even in ROM Hacks, the moment you know the roster, unless they are outright cheating or you are restricting yourself far beyond from what the game itself does, difficulty plummets.
The Mind Electric
Calming if you look at it right.
They most likely used items and affection to plow through the game so they could get to the juicy post-game leaks as quickly as possible. As somebody who prefers to avoid using items and will probably also try to minimize the benefits of affection, I'm wondering how the fuck I'm going to deal with Garchomp in this game now that it has Yache Berry.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
-I gotta be honest, I still don't buy that the evo items for those Pokemon you mentioned aren't available. That seems like way too glaring of an oversight to be allowed, there's gotta be some way to get them.
-Fair point on version exclusivity, I'll be sure to note that
-Luxray isn't really much better or worse than DPPt, it still gets Spark like usual. Not having Wild Charge readily available is a bummer but not really a nerf per se. As for Sneasel, you can still get Ice Punch and even Icicle Crash but it's admittedly a bit more difficult since it requires some luck with Underground encounters. I'll write that down as well. If anyone's got further examples of Pokemon hamstrung by level-up movepool changes compared to DPPt, please let me know!
Well... so far in the vast amount of people that have played and datamined the game, not a single person seems to have found them before postgame! So like. Not impossible but the evidence so far is pointing in the direction of an oversight too glaring to be allowed
Mamoswine looks like the best counter to me, on paper. Can survive an EQ and hit back with Avalanche for the OHKO, even through the Yache Berry I think.
If that thing uses Swords Dance though, it's lights out.
Remember when BW2 gave you Eevee and then put the Icy Rock in the post game
Remember when XY didn't let Sneasel evolve into Weavile because the evolution item was only available in the Battle Maison....
SM has razor claws available! on jangmo-o & hakamo-os. As a 5% thief rate.
The games can be incredibly stupid about evolution items even in the best of scenarios so I can fully believe that no, they did not put the razor fang (or other items of its ilk) anywhere else.
Remember when XY didn't let Sneasel evolve into Weavile because the evolution item was only available in the Battle Maison....
SM has razor claws available! on jangmo-o & hakamo-os. As a 5% thief rate.
The games can be incredibly stupid about evolution items even in the best of scenarios so I can fully believe that no, they did not put the razor fang (or other items of its ilk) anywhere else.
I also would consider it a very glaring oversight to not put the rest of the Platinum Pokémon (especially Eevee) in the underground before post-game. Like say what you will about whether you care about the ones excluded, it's still very strange to include a lot of them but then specifically exclude a few others
Here's Mamo's best gameplan for this situation.
Turn 1: Avalanche
Turn 2: Ice Shard
Turn 3 (if Chomp heals for any reason on Turn 3): Ice Shard x2 (2 turns)
Pretty simple stuff. I'd say there's other counters too- literally. No, seriously, the move Counter ruins this Chomp set if used correctly. That's what I'm finding with this whole postgame in general. You have to use things correctly otherwise the game can punish you for it.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Nah you're right, that's a very, very strange choice. Eevee especially has me baffled in this day and age where they're so determined to push it as the effective secondary mascot
Eevee I would have straight up expected to be the single non-Sinnoh dex Pokémon you can get before Postgame without the underground with how much it's become a mascot. Very much the opposite to how it's treated here!
I get Rotom still being postgame (even if I disagree with it; I still feel every Pokémon should have their Platinum availability aside from some becoming version exclusive), but none of the others strike me as something so special to exclude from the underground. Maybe Porygon due to its lore? But like there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get Yanma and Tropius and Tangela
I get Rotom still being postgame (even if I disagree with it; I still feel every Pokémon should have their Platinum availability aside from some becoming version exclusive), but none of the others strike me as something so special to exclude from the underground. Maybe Porygon due to its lore? But like there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get Yanma and Tropius and Tangela
Normally, I'd agree with you. Counter is a good in-game strategy that has worked well for me in the past.
But I believe Lucario might the only viable mon who actually learns Counter by level up in this game. And Luke isn't surviving an EQ from Cynthia's Garchomp.
Heracross (if even viable) might have shot. But I think the AI will be tempted to SD on Hera rather than hack away immediately with Dragon Claw.
But your point is valid - you have to think through things much more so in this game than certainly any other modern Pokémon game that I can think of. This is certainly a proper spiritual successor to Platinum in that sense.
Maybe this game is all about subverting expectations. You know - kiddy, chibi art, yet ridiculously harsh difficulty curve. Eevee is the second mascot, yet it'll be one of the few Plat dex mons we WON'T include.
Sort of tongue in cheek, but that's all I can think of. I do agree it's a pretty glaring oversight.
All I did was another joke about people complaining about people complaining.
Digging through the text dump again, I guess the entire joke behind Ramanas park is it's legendary pokemon coming to
wait for it
stop & smell the roses
1830 1873 178-msg_r221r0101_ookido_03 This place has a special connection with regions around the world, such as Kanto and Hoenn! It’s also connected to the Grand Underground. Exploring down there might reveal new Treasures. New discoveries lead to interesting encounters. Remember that.
1831 1885 178-msg_r221r0101_poketch_16 Ramanas Park is so scintillating! Coming here to stop and smell the roses always calms me down. Ramanas roses symbolize the joy of journeys. Speaking of journeys, I’ve heard that Legendary Pokémon travel here from many different regions. It’s probably the Ramanas roses’ alluring charm that draws them here!
(this doesnt seem to give you a poketch app so i actually think this might be the person who gives you the Kecleon/Snorlax apps from PalPark)
1832 1886 178-msg_r221r0101_admin_01 Welcome to Ramanas Park! This place is a tourist attraction that’s famous for the Ramanas roses blooming all over. It’s also where top-notch Trainers gather from many different regions. You might say Ramanas roses attract those who are strong—now that’s what I call flower power!
(Kind of mean to talk abotu trainers gathering from different regions and then not having battles lol)
1833 1887 178-msg_r221r0101_admin_02 What an amazing Pokémon you’ve caught! I’ll give you a statue that looks just like it!
(guess this is how you get legendary statues for the underground? Bet they have super high effectiveness)
1834 1888 178-msg_r221r0101_admin_03 Are you all right? I don’t know what you’re doing back here so soon, but don’t run yourself down. Take a nice rest.
1835 1889 178-msg_r221r0101_girl1_01 I came here with my dad to look at the flowers. I’ll take pictures with Pokémon while I’m at it!
1836 1890 178-msg_r221r0101_middleman1_01 My daughter loves Ramanas roses. A day doesn’t go by without her demanding we come see them.
1837 1891 178-msg_r221r0101_boy2_01 The smell of Ramanas roses isn’t the only selling point here—the people and Pokémon drawn from all over are spectacles in and of themselves, and those intriguing, enigmatic caves fill me with excitement!
1838 1892 178-msg_r221r0101_man1_01 Those caves in the park have enigmatic pedestals inside... Is there any purpose for them, I wonder?
1839 1893 178-msg_r221r0101_woman2_01 I came all the way out here to see rare Pokémon, but this place has a weird atmosphere. I feel like I could lose my sense of time and space...
1840 1894 178-msg_r221r0101_gorggeousw_01 Ramanas Park... It’s a quiet paradise that draws you closer to Pokémon that come from faraway lands. I especially look forward to seeing Pokémon from Kanto and Hoenn, but it tugs at my heartstrings to know they’re so far away from home.
(Kind of feels like this place would have wild encounters with other pokemon but i guess it doesn't; just another pal park reference i guess?)
wait for it
stop & smell the roses
1830 1873 178-msg_r221r0101_ookido_03 This place has a special connection with regions around the world, such as Kanto and Hoenn! It’s also connected to the Grand Underground. Exploring down there might reveal new Treasures. New discoveries lead to interesting encounters. Remember that.
1831 1885 178-msg_r221r0101_poketch_16 Ramanas Park is so scintillating! Coming here to stop and smell the roses always calms me down. Ramanas roses symbolize the joy of journeys. Speaking of journeys, I’ve heard that Legendary Pokémon travel here from many different regions. It’s probably the Ramanas roses’ alluring charm that draws them here!
(this doesnt seem to give you a poketch app so i actually think this might be the person who gives you the Kecleon/Snorlax apps from PalPark)
1832 1886 178-msg_r221r0101_admin_01 Welcome to Ramanas Park! This place is a tourist attraction that’s famous for the Ramanas roses blooming all over. It’s also where top-notch Trainers gather from many different regions. You might say Ramanas roses attract those who are strong—now that’s what I call flower power!
(Kind of mean to talk abotu trainers gathering from different regions and then not having battles lol)
1833 1887 178-msg_r221r0101_admin_02 What an amazing Pokémon you’ve caught! I’ll give you a statue that looks just like it!
(guess this is how you get legendary statues for the underground? Bet they have super high effectiveness)
1834 1888 178-msg_r221r0101_admin_03 Are you all right? I don’t know what you’re doing back here so soon, but don’t run yourself down. Take a nice rest.
1835 1889 178-msg_r221r0101_girl1_01 I came here with my dad to look at the flowers. I’ll take pictures with Pokémon while I’m at it!
1836 1890 178-msg_r221r0101_middleman1_01 My daughter loves Ramanas roses. A day doesn’t go by without her demanding we come see them.
1837 1891 178-msg_r221r0101_boy2_01 The smell of Ramanas roses isn’t the only selling point here—the people and Pokémon drawn from all over are spectacles in and of themselves, and those intriguing, enigmatic caves fill me with excitement!
1838 1892 178-msg_r221r0101_man1_01 Those caves in the park have enigmatic pedestals inside... Is there any purpose for them, I wonder?
1839 1893 178-msg_r221r0101_woman2_01 I came all the way out here to see rare Pokémon, but this place has a weird atmosphere. I feel like I could lose my sense of time and space...
1840 1894 178-msg_r221r0101_gorggeousw_01 Ramanas Park... It’s a quiet paradise that draws you closer to Pokémon that come from faraway lands. I especially look forward to seeing Pokémon from Kanto and Hoenn, but it tugs at my heartstrings to know they’re so far away from home.
(Kind of feels like this place would have wild encounters with other pokemon but i guess it doesn't; just another pal park reference i guess?)
Aaand it sounds like we have hope!
Someone shared a Reddit post with me on Twitter because it related to my Grand Underground sheet, and this was one of the comments:
While we don't know for sure what items are available in this way, this gives us some crucial new information: like the Wild Area, there will be some evolution items to pick up on the ground in the Grand Underground (possibly in fixed locations), not only from mining! That includes the Dusk Stone, which was never available through mining in the original Underground, and... considering the devs' apparent policy that above-ground Sinnoh should change in as few obvious ways as possible and the Underground is where basically all of the fixes and new content are crammed in already, it seems very plausible (though still unconfirmed) that this is where they'd hide all of the formerly-postgame evolution items that we'll have reason to want in the main story for the first time.
And speaking of the Grand Underground sheet, one last update...!!
The Reddit post I mentioned above was an explanation by one /u/Self-ProclaimedKing attributing all 20 unknown encounter tables from my sheet to specific places in the Grand Underground - to be clear, this is technically an unconfirmed theory, but it's a very well-reasoned one that makes total sense. In addition, their seven Cavern guesses matched up in obvious ways to the seven Cavern names in the order they're listed in the game data, so there is strong reason to believe their assumptions are on point!
Accordingly, I have added all of these specific biomes, including the in-game names of the Caverns, to my sheet and changed the color-coding to correspond more clearly to the map!
I also added said map to the first tab of the sheet for ease of access (and moved the clarifying notes/explanation to their own section alongside it rather than shoving them to the top of the encounter tables, which I hope makes the sheet as a whole easier to parse).
This is a super exciting update and makes the sheet a lot more practical to use when figuring out Pokémon availability and even just trying to find things ("Zone 3" doesn't exactly tell you much about where Cherubi is actually found, does it?).
I also have taken the opportunity to provide a rough list of which biomes and caverns are available in each section of the Underground:
SOUTHWEST (available immediately by the time you get the Explorer Kit!)
- Sand
- Grass
- Water
- Marsh
- Grass/Water
- Sunlit Cavern
MAIN UNDERGROND (available immediately by the time you get the Explorer Kit!)
- Sand
- Grass
- Water
- Canyon
- Lava
- Crystal
- Grass/Water
- Lava/Canyon
- Still-Water Cavern
- Big Bluff Cavern
SOUTHEAST (confirmed available from Route 213 - only requires 2 Badges)
- Sand
- Water
- Canyon
- Marsh
- Lava/Canyon
- Bogsunk Cavern
SMALL CENTER (accessible from Celestic in the originals, which requires 4 badges at the latest, but I dunno where else - it could be sooner if parts of Mt. Coronet count?)
- Crystal
- Glacier
- Stargleam Cavern
NORTHWEST (comparatively lategame? corresponds maybe to the Snowpoint area; Bulbapedia only says it's available from Fullmoon and Newmoon Islands but I don't think the whole section is postgame)
- Sand
- Crystal
- Snow
- Glacier
- Glacial Cavern
NORTHEAST (probably postgame but does not require the National Dex - corresponds to the Battle Zone)
- Sand
- Grass
- Water
- Canyon
- Lava
- Marsh
- Crystal
- Lava/Canyon
- Typhlo Cavern
- Sand
- Grass
- Water
- Marsh
- Grass/Water
- Sunlit Cavern
MAIN UNDERGROND (available immediately by the time you get the Explorer Kit!)
- Sand
- Grass
- Water
- Canyon
- Lava
- Crystal
- Grass/Water
- Lava/Canyon
- Still-Water Cavern
- Big Bluff Cavern
SOUTHEAST (confirmed available from Route 213 - only requires 2 Badges)
- Sand
- Water
- Canyon
- Marsh
- Lava/Canyon
- Bogsunk Cavern
SMALL CENTER (accessible from Celestic in the originals, which requires 4 badges at the latest, but I dunno where else - it could be sooner if parts of Mt. Coronet count?)
- Crystal
- Glacier
- Stargleam Cavern
NORTHWEST (comparatively lategame? corresponds maybe to the Snowpoint area; Bulbapedia only says it's available from Fullmoon and Newmoon Islands but I don't think the whole section is postgame)
- Sand
- Crystal
- Snow
- Glacier
- Glacial Cavern
NORTHEAST (probably postgame but does not require the National Dex - corresponds to the Battle Zone)
- Sand
- Grass
- Water
- Canyon
- Lava
- Marsh
- Crystal
- Lava/Canyon
- Typhlo Cavern
Notably: this confirms at least all biomes except Snow/Glacier are accessible from the moment the player receives the Explorer Kit, although some of the specific named Caverns are accessed later in the game.
On a last related note, since I mentioned the ordered list of caverns from the game data, this is worth having as well:
Last edited: