BH Balanced Hackmons

[Lunatic Hai]

yeah i think we onto something, maybe something like volt tackle, head smash (I see ho-oh the most as a volt absorber, however any flying is good) volt switch maybe in case you want to predict switches and then a move of personal choice (i would run some water or ice move to counter grounds) on Zerora with life orb as magic guard blocks the damage from it if I remember correctly. I'm going to test this set later today with my main stall team and replace the ferrothorn. I'll check back to see if it goes well.

from what im understanding from these posts is that magic guard blocks gulp missile damage and electrics don't get parad (for the topic of this post anyway). so magic guard zekrom/thundurous/eleki/zeraora(an underused mon who has great potential) basically have immunity to crams main gimmick making them much better in a meta where cram is big threat and helps make them slightly more viable and can help skew them to be picked over other mons. if the meta shifts this way then cram might start getting paired with ground types or volt absorb making the enemy team more limited( but only slightly ) as it turns in a 6v4+ predictable set/mon+cram. and non of the electric types listed are particularly bad and can definitely be built with. if anyone wants to see a post where I go more in depth about this or someone else wants to make post about this than ill be more than happy to help if my schedule allows.

The issue with these is the fact that, sans beak, these mons are pretty weak. Thundurus has some decent power by mimicking special Ray sets, but generally isn't an absolute offensive powerhouse. Zekrom is far more restricted in its options now, as is Eleki, and Zeraora was kinda bad from the beginning. Even with Glance, pretty much every Zeraora set got hard walled by FC Eternatus, who has long since fallen from its state as one of the most prominent walls in the tier.

Zera Hits Like A Burnt Noodle

252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 138-164 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 75-91 (19.3 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 75-91 (19.3 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

No way you're killing any FC mon with that, and even PH Tina can avoid the 2hko from full with healing and threaten something like koff or core. Not to mention the fact that pretty much all of the best defensive mons hard stomach volt tackle. I even gave Zeraora the benefit of +attack nature instead of a more realistic +speed. Maybe it'll find some super niche use, but you lose out on so much running a physical electric attacker that it's mostly just better to run a PH mon that genuinely threatens things, aromatherapy/jungle healing, or just take the para and play around it. I'm actually a fan of Zekrom myself, and one of the few things I liked with beak around was that it made Zekrom a rather viable threat, but nowadays it's too underwhelming in its sets to really be worth it for me. I'd much rather use Zac-C, PH/Metrosexual Xern, Palkia, Gigas, Etern, etc. as offensive threats.

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

The issue with these is the fact that, sans beak, these mons are pretty weak. Thundurus has some decent power by mimicking special Ray sets, but generally isn't an absolute offensive powerhouse. Zekrom is far more restricted in its options now, as is Eleki, and Zeraora was kinda bad from the beginning. Even with Glance, pretty much every Zeraora set got hard walled by FC Eternatus, who has long since fallen from its state as one of the most prominent walls in the tier.

Zera Hits Like A Burnt Noodle

252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 138-164 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 75-91 (19.3 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 75-91 (19.3 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

No way you're killing any FC mon with that, and even PH Tina can avoid the 2hko from full with healing and threaten something like koff or core. Not to mention the fact that pretty much all of the best defensive mons hard stomach volt tackle. I even gave Zeraora the benefit of +attack nature instead of a more realistic +speed. Maybe it'll find some super niche use, but you lose out on so much running a physical electric attacker that it's mostly just better to run a PH mon that genuinely threatens things, aromatherapy/jungle healing, or just take the para and play around it. I'm actually a fan of Zekrom myself, and one of the few things I liked with beak around was that it made Zekrom a rather viable threat, but nowadays it's too underwhelming in its sets to really be worth it for me. I'd much rather use Zac-C, PH/Metrosexual Xern, Palkia, Gigas, Etern, etc. as offensive threats.

I've been using a VERY different set than the zera set here as while it seems everyone has seen its attack I've seen that it has basically equal attacking stats(a 10 point difference doesn't matter much unless it between 2 mons speed stats) so ive been using a mixed set with volt tackle, volt switch, mind blown, and insert coverage/support move here. fur coat mons aren't really meant to wall special attackers ( I mean that obvious ) and with mind blown and +spe it outspeeds and 2hkos a zacian and can take a hit back. also great revenge killer. also as you said no one is nunning fur caot etern
p.s if anyone says that X move wouldnt work against X mon remember you can use any move you want that isnt banned

 

[Redchimp]

The issue with these is the fact that, sans beak, these mons are pretty weak. Thundurus has some decent power by mimicking special Ray sets, but generally isn't an absolute offensive powerhouse. Zekrom is far more restricted in its options now, as is Eleki, and Zeraora was kinda bad from the beginning. Even with Glance, pretty much every Zeraora set got hard walled by FC Eternatus, who has long since fallen from its state as one of the most prominent walls in the tier.

Zera Hits Like A Burnt Noodle

252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Eternatus: 138-164 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 75-91 (19.3 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Life Orb Zeraora Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 75-91 (19.3 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

No way you're killing any FC mon with that, and even PH Tina can avoid the 2hko from full with healing and threaten something like koff or core. Not to mention the fact that pretty much all of the best defensive mons hard stomach volt tackle. I even gave Zeraora the benefit of +attack nature instead of a more realistic +speed. Maybe it'll find some super niche use, but you lose out on so much running a physical electric attacker that it's mostly just better to run a PH mon that genuinely threatens things, aromatherapy/jungle healing, or just take the para and play around it. I'm actually a fan of Zekrom myself, and one of the few things I liked with beak around was that it made Zekrom a rather viable threat, but nowadays it's too underwhelming in its sets to really be worth it for me. I'd much rather use Zac-C, PH/Metrosexual Xern, Palkia, Gigas, Etern, etc. as offensive threats.

I would agree if you if I was trying to run Zerora as my main offensive threat but the only real purpose for it is to counter the painfully annoying duo that is Ho-Oh/Cram as both with their typing can evade ground type moves, absorb electric moves given the Ho-Oh is volt absorb. Given the pokemon that Zerora has to take out, it does very well, given that head smash and volt tackle both OHKO their given targets. Of course it is still niche, which I have found out as time has gone on using it, as simply put cramorant/Ho-Oh isn't as common as this duscussion has led it to be.

 

[opfish]

I've been using a VERY different set than the zera set here as while it seems everyone has seen its attack I've seen that it has basically equal attacking stats(a 10 point difference doesn't matter much unless it between 2 mons speed stats) so ive been using a mixed set with volt tackle, volt switch, mind blown, and insert coverage/support move here. fur coat mons aren't really meant to wall special attackers ( I mean that obvious ) and with mind blown and +spe it outspeeds and 2hkos a zacian and can take a hit back. also great revenge killer. also as you said no one is nunning fur caot etern
p.s if anyone says that X move wouldnt work against X mon remember you can use any move you want that isnt banned

It is hit like a burnt noodle, not only Fur Coat, it can't really hurt Dragon Type, even though you use Glance.
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 211-250 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery(not even Fur Coat or Poison Heal)
252 SpA Life Orb Zeraora Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Zamazenta-Crowned: 146-174 (37.6 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO(not even scales and +SpD)
252 Atk Life Orb Zeraora Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Xerneas: 208-247 (45.6 - 54.1%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO(it is -Def)

 

[Redchimp]

Is there any true teambuilding guide out there? Like a list of things a team should have to be competetivly viable? Like stuff like entry hazard removal, certain typings, counters to universal threats and set up strategy counters? I get this is a super vague question but wanted to know if there was some public resource or something. If there isn't one I might take a crack at trying to make a complete list maybe

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

Is there any true teambuilding guide out there? Like a list of things a team should have to be competitively viable? Like stuff like entry hazard removal, certain typings, counters to universal threats and set up strategy counters? I get this is a super vague question but wanted to know if there was some public resource or something. If there isn't one I might take a crack at trying to make a complete list maybe

the viability rankings are a watered down version of that since you can see what the biggest threats are. if you want to make like a spreadsheet style thing and share it then ide be more than happy to help.

 

[a loser]

Is there any true teambuilding guide out there? Like a list of things a team should have to be competetivly viable? Like stuff like entry hazard removal, certain typings, counters to universal threats and set up strategy counters? I get this is a super vague question but wanted to know if there was some public resource or something. If there isn't one I might take a crack at trying to make a complete list maybe

There is not a true public resource for this. Previous generations of BH have tried making role compendiums similar to ones you'll see in standard tiers, but these are very hard to keep up with in a metagame that is so variable since any mon can run almost any move and ability. It is hard to draw the line for things like entry hazard removal. For example, Xerneas can use Rapid Spin well with both Pixilate and Poison Heal so Xern clearly goes on this role, but you can literally slap Court Change on any mon you want to so how do you account for this accurately in a role compendium?

The sample teams are the closest thing to a teambuilding guide that is currently available. Each of these teams have been tested on the ladder and seen success and include the elements that are necessary in teambuilding to succeed in the current metagame. The current teams mainly consist of balanced offense and stall, both of which are in a good place right now. These teams are available for use and help new players get accustomed to the metagame but can also be used to show/teach players what can be used and what is good. The VR is also a good place to see what mons are best in the metagame so you aren't stuck using a Hippowdon that is clearly outclassed by Groudon.

I see from some of your recent posts that you've both used sample teams and picked certain sets from the sample teams and made a new team from them. This is a fine way to start building your own teams, but you have to see past the specific sets from these sample teams and look at the roles each set plays for the team. With this, you'll start to learn what can fit in each role and start creating your own sets.

But here's a barebones summary of what you need in BH teambuilding right now:

• A win condition. This could be offensive presence with a breaker like Zacian-C, Xerneas, Eternatus, etc, or tons of chip with hazard stack, Rocky Helmet, and pivoting. You need something that ultimately can win you the game.
• A setup sweeper check. There is no ultimate stop to setup sweepers available, but Prankster Haze / Topsy-Turvy / Encore, Unaware, Imposter, Spectral Thief, and others are tried and true methods. You can get by with limited checks to setup sweepers for a while, like just running a Fur Coat and Ice Scales core, but you're bound to run into Belly Drum or random setup like Stored Power Trip shenanigans that will just win if you aren't ready for it.
• An Imposter-proof team. Here's a guide on improofing I posted a while back. It isn't exhaustive, but covers a lot of common improofing methods. If you don't improof, you are likely to lose to Imposter users in one way or another.
• Entry hazard control. I've built teams without entry hazard control, both accidentally and on purpose, and I usually end up wishing I had it. This can be done in many ways and varies based on the team structure. Rapid Spin, Court Change, Defog, Heavy-Duty Boots, and Magic Bounce can all be used and are useful for not being overwhelmed by hazard stack or stray Sticky Web.

The rest is all up to you. Each of these above aspects can be achieved in several ways with different combinations of team members, moves, and abilities and this is what makes teambuilding fun.

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Here's my take on Cram:

I've made my opinions clear to many people about Cramorant in general, but I don't believe that it is necessarily broken. I find that many of the counter-play revolving around Cramorant-Gorging, namely, Poison Heal, Aromatherapy, Jungle Healing, Misty Terrain, Electric Pokemon, Hazards, free progress w/o damaging it have been generally easy to fit on teams, and I've found that many of my teams I build will naturally be prepped against Cramorant-Gorging for these reasons.

However, the argument for why Cram is broken, despite these counter measures is that in an already lower variance meta, and with not a ton of ways to beat Cram, a well built team with it would be fully prepared for these answers, and not only will it be prepared but it can be over prepped against these, because Cram is just so good at being a nuance to everything else. This is true, but for me hasn't yet pushed it over the edge to being broken.

What I do believe though, is that Cramorant-Gorging is inherently unpleasant to play against, because it makes one really scared of clicking any moves, such as anchor shot or u-turn because the draw backs are so huge. Not only that, scarf pokemon are pretty terrible right now because they don't do enough damage to kill Cram, and are totally crippled by it. Typical speed control measures, such as LO Pheramosa have also lost almost all viability because of Cramorant, and the convential way of playing balanced hackmons has drastically changed because of Cramorant. Pivot heavy teams have difficulty finding viability so the best teams have begun to resort to trapping, which coincidentally enough, has occurred simultaneously with the increase in popularity of imprisonform trapping. This has created a meta, which to many is extremely unpleasant to play and watch.

For these reasons I believe that Cramorant-Gorging should be quick banned. Well why quick banning instead of a suspect test. Well for one, ompl is in two weeks and a suspect would take too long, and the meta wouldn't have enough time to figure itself out by the time ompl rolls around. So, two weeks would be enough time for the meta to figure itself out. And two, I feel like the general consensus from almost everybody I've talked to is that they despise Cramorant's presence in the meta, and regardless of whether it is broken or not, they would vote for it to be banned.

This is just my general take, and even though a potential Cramorant ban's reasoning would be different than previous bans, I think creating a meta which is #1 competitive / balanced, and #2 enjoyable should always be the top priority, and a pokemon such as Cramorant-Gorging, which to many saps the joy and entertainment of playing bh, is able to warrant enough reasoning for a quickban.

 

[Spectral Moonlight]

I've also come to state my opinion on Cramorant-Gorging:

similar to what Sevag has said, Cramorant is nowhere near broken to the likes of Calyrex-Shadow or Zacian but turns every game it takes part of into an RNG fest, to say the least, making it extremely unfun to play against along with restricting many playstyles and teambuilding.

for these reasons I also would like a quick ban on Cramorant-Gorging

 

[Varrio]

Completely agree with the two posts before me. I have stopped playing recently because whenever I have a new idea it just isn't perfect.

"Oh, this set sounds cool, maybe if I added this mon to support that set it'll be fun to play as. Also works vs FC Zama and Giratina core... yeah nevermind I forgot Cramorant exists."

- Me in 2021

 

[a loser]

Based on recent community discussion and the state of the metagame as of late, the council has discussed things and has decided to quick ban Cramorant-Gorging from Balanced Hackmons.

Cramorant-Gorging's ability to paralyze and chip foes upon switching into any damaging move is unprecedented. It has provided tremendous team support with this, acting as Speed control, entry hazard control, a disruptor with Trick, and a pivot. The threat of activating Gulp Missile keeps foes from choosing damaging moves as they fear being paralyzed and chipped in return. This leads to 50/50 situations where the Cramorant user usually has the upper hand, as they can switch to Cramorant to take the hit and pivot out or make a play based on the opponent's fear.

While counterplay to Cramorant is available and its 70 / 55 / 95 bulk leaves much to be desired, its impact on the metagame has largely been unhealthy and uncompetitive. The paralysis support from Gulp Missile not only has the immediate benefit of keeping attackers at bay, but a long term benefit of forcing its foes to deal with potential full paralysis keeping them from moving. While this is true of paralysis with or without Cramorant, its ability to spread paralysis without even choosing a move separates it and makes it unhealthy.

Tagging Kris to implement this on the ladder, please!

 

[Redchimp]

The idea of balanced hackmons and what is and isn't banned so far is usually based upon it either being offensively overpowered (bolt beak, double iron bash) or restricting teambuilding (Eternamax, Shedinja, Darm-Galar-Zen, Zacian-C). These factors tend to be why moves and pokemon are banned and as such I want to take this "guideline" and put it over Cramorant-G. To do this I will take the 2 main Cram sets, heavy duty boots and rocky helmet.

Cramorant-Gorging @ Rocky Helmet/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Gulp Missile
- Flip Turn
- Strength Sap
- Court Change
- Encore/Taunt


This set does way more than any pokemon should be able to. It gives hazard control, can punish certain setup sweepers that come in on cram thinking it can only hurt it with flip turn, and hurt physical threats, especially the rocky helmet variant. It's flying type also gives it quite a bit of utility making cram a very good counter to certain wall breakers like adaptability groudon or kyurem-black. Because of these factors a team must always carry a move or support to counter paralysis. As a result of this hyper offense teams are near impossible to run currently, as the paralysis combined with the small 25% damage each hit hurts HO main factor, speed and agression.

I would also like to touch on pivot moves (U-Turn, Flip Turn, and Volt Switch). These moves are dead, just entirely dead, just the idea of cramorant causes restrictions on pivot moves, and as such the moves are rarely used, personally I have only used them on a metrosexual xern set to counter Ho-Oh. All of these moves are also part of the reason HO is dead, cram swaps in on these moves, 2 of which are completley walled by Cram's typing, and the other clear when it is present as most mons don't run volt switch unless they are either A) electric types or B) special attackers, making it easy to know when not to switch Cram in.

I don't think anything should restrict a metagame so hard that most players think it's annoying, whilst also shutting out an entire team archetype. Every game I have played has been a long stall fest in which we go to turn 50 before anyone attacks and both teams are at almost full HP as we are both scared of cram para on our only offensive threats that can kill it.

Looking at the results, it seems Cram is a restricting force on the metagame, and as such, I am voting for a quick ban as well.


Edit: Damnit i finished this a few minutes after they made the announcement

 

[Redchimp]

Now that we have a cram banned metagame, what are some major changes you could see happen in the metagame now?

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

most electric types have lost thier niche. strong breakers and HO will be on the rise and poison heal and guts lose the niche of anti-cram (not to say thier worthless now, definitely still viable). Magic guard is definitely going up and your gonna see more boosting sweepers thanks to cram no longer slowing thier momentum through damage/para/taunt.

 

[cityscapes]

Now that we have a cram banned metagame, what are some major changes you could see happen in the metagame now?

pretty hard question imo. cram was relevant to all playstyles both for and against them so it’s difficult to say that anything was specifically buffed/nerfed.

• offense no longer gets instantly owned by cram, but at the same time it can no longer use its own cram to escape disadvantageous situations (previously sash mg and prank dbond have seen widespread use for this purpose). you can also run into issues with wisp, paraspam, etc becoming more efficient (due to less heal bell) and getting all your sweepers statused which is no fun. offense will definitely take more thought to build in my opinion.
• balance will likely see the continued use of poison heal both as a potential way to make progress and as a way to stop zamac in its tracks. ph isn’t the only way to do this (i have experimented with stuff like triage sap tang which is a little better after cram ban) so i’m interested in which techs will pop up.
• stall was good when using cram to trade away the opponent’s strongest threats, but it had massive issues actually making progress and often just folded to stuff like imprisonform zac. wondering what other types of stall will pop up.
• i disagree that mons like electrics got worse with the cram ban. from my experience facing sevag these guys aren’t good in the first place (except zekrom). good players like him will consistently punish you for using flawed breakers by walling them out or meeting them head-on with a poison heal user, so the chip damage just stacks up and soon you can’t do anything anymore. this applies regardless of whether you are facing a cram team; bypassing cram is only relevant when you have some absurd mon like simple clangorous soul zekrom vs a prank weak to its stab.

those are my initial thoughts, lots of crazy stuff could happen though.

 

[a loser]

I'm going to do something a bit different and share some of my thoughts with you all concerning the current bans in BH. I'm not going to touch on every single one, especially recent ones like Cramorant-Gorging, but will cover most that aren't just clearly broken. Also, I'm not going to touch on the clauses since I believe each of them are good and help the meta be more healthy and diverse.

Pokemon

• Calyrex-Shadow
  • Too fast, too furious. Nothing has changed to make this any less broken.
• Darmanitan-Galar-Zen
  • Even without Bolt Beak and Intrepid Sword, having STAB on V-create and Glacial Lance is way too good.
• Eternatus-Eternamax
  • LOL
• Shedinja
  • Boots and Pads are two great options for Shed, and despite having Giratina back I think Shed would still be a royal pain for teams. No Pursuit is really good for it and it can just sit on a lot of mons. I do miss Shed, but I don't think it would be a healthy addition.
• Zacian-Crowned
  • I've often thought about what a freed Zacian-C would be like. It is already excellent being locked into Intrepid Sword with Rusted Sword and it would be even better with the ability to run things like Pixilate, Mold Breaker, Tough Claws, Steelworker, and even defensive or support sets would be really good. I think it would be very hard to deal with this mon.

Moves

• Shell Smash
  • Playing some Gen 7 BH lately reminded me of how dumb smash is. It is just so annoying to play around. It would certainly make things interesting, but I don't believe it would be interesting in a good way.
• Bolt Beak
  • Personally, I miss Bolt Beak a lot but mainly on STAB users like Zekrom and Regieleki. Checking Bolt Beak Zacian-C was no fun at all. I think having one less 170+ BP move for people to click has led to more creativity in the builder.

Abilities

• Protean / Libero
  • I think about this one often. Looking back on the history of Protean and seeing how it was banned by one vote in a meta that you couldn't use max EVs makes me think it could be more manageable today. However, we've gotten new moves like Fishious Rend, Glacial Lance, stronger Multi-Attack, Astral Barrage, Sunsteel Strike, and Photon Geyser that make the idea of checking a Protean user seem futile. You could argue that there aren't great options for Protean users since Zacian-C is restricted, but Shift Gear Kyurem-B sounds pretty insane. This is something that I'd be open to looking into though, like in a test ladder or a tour maybe, but is most likely still busted.
• Moody
  • There were talks of freeing Moody early on in Gen 8 BH since it no longer boosts evasion, but boosting everything else at random, for free, is still pretty uncompetitive.
• Water Bubble
  • Even if we banned Fishious Rend, no thanks on this one.
• Magnet Pull
  • On paper, this isn't on the same level as Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. However, in Gen 8 BH every other mon is Steel-type so its basically the same as Shadow Tag lol. Free trapping is just uncompetitive and doesn't add anything healthy to the metagame.
• Stakeout
  • Stakeout was quickbanned last gen in a meta where Primal Groudon was free and running rampant. There is no mixed attacker currently available that is on the same level as Pdon, though. Stakeout is a prediction reliant ability that punishes switches and really has no true counterplay. Something like Choice Band Kyu-B with this would be pretty dumb to play against. 252+ Atk Choice Band Stakeout Kyurem-Black V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 438-516 (112.8 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• Illusion
  • Another ability banned in a previous meta by just one vote. Illusion is pretty wacky, no doubt about that, but it was really fun to use. I voted not to ban at the time, but I can't really think of how Illusion would be a healthy and competitive addition to the current metagame.
• Contrary
  • The only "good" that would come of this is giving us more ways to check Zacian-C via Contrary V-create. I don't believe Contrary has any business being unbanned. Contrary attackers spam high-powered attacks that make Unaware a matchup fish and mixed stat boosting laughs at Fur/Scales cores.

So those are my thoughts for now on the ban list. I get asked about this quite often so I thought it would be good to lay it all out there for anyone interested. A lot of older/former BH players are appalled when they see the long list of bans compared to previous generations, but going through each of them reminds you of why they would be busted if released.

TL;DR: Out of everything currently banned, Protean / Libero is the only thing that I feel has the potential to not be completely busted if released. But I do think it would be an incredible weapon and have a huge impact on the metagame.

 

[Nihilslave]

I'm here to post some of nice "counter" sets I've used since early gen 8.

Mixed Attackers

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Double Iron Bash
- Blue Flare
- Bolt Beak
Used to counter: fur coat melmetal.
I used this in early gen 8 when zacian-c can freely choose its ability. At that time melmetal is just everywhere and is one of the top-ranked mons. So I use blue flare on my zacian-c to beat it, just like using fire blast on garchomp to beat skarmory.
+2 252 SpA Sheer Force Zacian-Crowned Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Melmetal: 548-646 (115.6 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zekrom @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Bolt Strike
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
Used to counter: fur coat mons.
Still used in early gen 8, but zacian-c is already banned. At that time fur coat and prankster haze are quite popular on the ladder. So I choose to used mixed zekrom, with bolt strike to hit hard on prankster hazers.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Umbreon: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zekrom Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Melmetal: 645-759 (136 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zekrom Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 512-603 (105.7 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Zekrom Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 382-450 (98.4 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Ice beam is for shed.

Calyrex-Shadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 72 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 9 SpD
- No Retreat
- Stored Power
- Moongeist Beam
- Bolt Beak
Used to counter: yveltal.
Mixed attackers are hard to use after the shell smash ban. However simple + no retreat still gives them a chance. Yveltal is the most popular counter to calyrex-s at that time. So the strategy here is almost the same as blue flare zacian-c, except that sucker punch really sucks.
+2 252 Atk Calyrex-Shadow Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 452-534 (99.1 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Calyrex-Shadow Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 0- SpD Eviolite Chansey: 708-832 (100.5 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lunala @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 5 SpD
- No Retreat
- Stored Power
- Astral Barrage
- Glacial Lance
Used to counter: regenvest zygarde-c.
An up-to date version of bolt beak calyrex. Change glacial lance to v-create if ice scales zamazenta-c becomes popular in the future. The speed adjustment here maybe unnecessary.
+2 252 Atk Lunala Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 712-840 (111.9 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Weird Sets

Xurkitree @ Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Blue Flare
- Volt Switch
- Thunder
Used to counter: giratina & zygarde-c.
One day I want to use normalize regigigas and have to find something to kill giratina. Xerneas and kyurem can't do this because giratina will just switch out. So finally I decide to give xurkitree a try. With choice specs and refrigerate, xurkitree's boomburst hits harder than kyurem-w (without specs). And it turns out that countless giratinas die upon switching in. I swear this was the best xurkitree set ever. But after you read this post, it no longer is.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 520-614 (103.1 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Xurkitree Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 744-876 (116.9 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(The calculator currently has problems with -ate calculation. I use a 168 BP special ice move to do the calculation instead.)

Regigigas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Facade
- Taunt
- Avalanche
Used to counter: core enforcer users & haze/topsy-turvy users.
Not a weird set actually since the gen 7 smogon analysis recommends us to use avalanche on regigigas. I just want to remind people that avalanche is still viable, or at least niche.

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- Low Kick
- Imprison
- Transform
Used to counter: anti-trap ghost-type mons.
Completely copied from someone else. But I don't remember who it is from. Use spirit shackle to hit hard on ghost-type mons and use imp-trans to beat others. Many people suggest me to change low kick for dragon energy. Just change it to what you like.
252 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 188-224 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Wide-coverage Sets

Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Light of Ruin
- Mind Blown
- Psycho Boost
Used to counter: fast attackers.
NDBH set. I pair this with technician necrozma-ultra to kill fast attackers which are threats to the latter.
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y on a critical hit: 432-510 (103.8 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Light of Ruin vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 400-473 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(OHKOs greninja-ash & sceptile-mega)
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Mind Blown vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 390-460 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Darmanitan-Galar-Zen: 430-507 (103.8 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 619-733 (127.8 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 128- Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 707-834 (100.4 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- V-create
- U-turn
- Glacial Lance
Used to counter: fur coat users & steel-type mons.
Copied from a friend of mine. Sunsteel strike 2HKOs almost everything, except giratina, zygarde-c and volcanion, which can be easily dealt with by eternatus, or the refrigerate xurkitree above. By the way, I've seen a rise in tinted lens usage recently.
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dialga: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

 

[blackster0915]

Hey fellow BH community,
so Cram got cancelled recently. This offers wider viability and opportunities for heavy setup pokemon. I would like to introduce a set that I have been using currently.

Regigigas @ Expert Belt
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Strength Sap
- Precipice Blades
- Glacial Lance

Before describing its moveset, a short disclaimer: I know that this set may not be meta. It has many weaknesses. But in the right situation, this monster can carry whole games. Especially when the enemy doesn't have counterplay or already lost their key pokemon to stop it (especially their Prankster).

This set is specially made to counter Strength Sap shenanigans. Dragon Dance has 32pp while Shift Gear only has 16. This means, you can always setup on the enemy, regardless of how many pp they have left on Strength Sap. Precipice Blades and Glacial Lance are strong coverage which lets you hit everything you need in the current meta. Expert Belt strengthens your attacks even more. You will need it because you don't got a stab in Facade.

Here some calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Expert Belt Regigigas Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 223-264 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252+ Atk Expert Belt Regigigas Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zamazenta-Crowned: 334-394 (86 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

So as you can see, after 1 Dragon Dance, you already do around 60%. After a second dragon dance, you will do around 90-100% which means, ZamaC cant effectively wall you for long.

252+ Atk Expert Belt Regigigas Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 278-329 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Expert Belt Regigigas Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 554-653 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+4 252+ Atk Expert Belt Regigigas Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Giratina: 415-490 (82.3 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Same goes for Giratina although you need to be at +6 to safely OHKO Fur Coat Giratina.

252+ Atk Expert Belt Regigigas Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 547-648 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Expert Belt Regigigas Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 1094-1291 (172 - 202.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zygarde doesn't stand a chance against you in any way.

Conclusion:
I know there are better sets but I think this setup set of Regigigas became even better after the Cram cancel.

 

[DarkRisingRay]

Bring back illusion please!

 

[Balanced Fuckmon]

imagine quickbanning a tier B+ "semi-pokemon" after the hours of discussion :D :D :D why didn't you just write "ehhh getting paralyzed in a dynamic metagame is too problematic, why don't we just ban nuzzle/glare instead?"

 

[a loser]

imagine quickbanning a tier B+ "semi-pokemon" after the hours of discussion :D :D :D why didn't you just write "ehhh getting paralyzed in a dynamic metagame is too problematic, why don't we just ban nuzzle/glare instead?"

Viability rankings are a useful tool but have no bearing on what is or isn't competitive and healthy. Some of the community was calling for a ban on Cramorant while it was still ranked C in the VR. I, for one, slept on Cramorant's potential until I started actually building with it. I believe this happened to more than just me, which resulted in the initial "oh, this mon is annoying but not that great" response in the discussion.

I'm not sure which "hours of discussion" you are referring to but community and council discussion on Cramorant has taken place on and off since January and was talked about frequently in the OM discord. I already touched on this in my post that announced the ban, but the ability to paralyze foes, guaranteed, without even choosing a move is not something we've ever had before and is not healthy. Coming from someone who has extensively built around paralysis, I can assure you that sending in the bird to take a hit is so much easier and more efficient than clicking Glare or Nuzzle with one of your mons. Paralysis isn't the issue in the metagame, but being able to inflict it practically for free was definitely an issue.

 

[Plasmaster09]

This may not be anywhere near as major as I think it might be, but...
Regieleki.
All of the strategies people would try with Deoxys-Speed before that revolved around its speed (most of them involving gratuitous stat-up abuse) are now even stronger due to the existence of this abomination. (Why on earth did Game Freak even MAKE something faster than D-Speed?!)
I'm not suggesting a ban, or even really ban-testing it for that matter- just suggesting looking into it. (I'm probably also really overthinking this, but its potential as either a stat boost spammer and/or a sweeper is a bit concerning to me.)

 

[Ace Roll]

This may not be anywhere near as major as I think it might be, but...
Regieleki.
All of the strategies people would try with Deoxys-Speed before that revolved around its speed (most of them involving gratuitous stat-up abuse) are now even stronger due to the existence of this abomination. (Why on earth did Game Freak even MAKE something faster than D-Speed?!)
I'm not suggesting a ban, or even really ban-testing it for that matter- just suggesting looking into it. (I'm probably also really overthinking this, but its potential as either a status spammer and/or a sweeper is a bit concerning to me.)

It is extremely frail and limited after the Bolt beak ban. Deoxys D had its use to set up hazards where a metagame was dominated by Shell smash and focus sash, gen 8 BH is quite different. Only decent Regileki set imo would look like this:

Regieleki @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Inferno
- Destiny Bond/filler
- Filler/hypnosis

Other would be

Regieleki @ Focus Sash
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky webs
- Spore
- filler
- Filler

But easy to distinguish and you don't really want a whole mon only dedicated to getting up hazards.

 

[Plasmaster09]

It is extremely frail and limited after the Bolt beak ban. Deoxys D had its use to set up hazards where a metagame was dominated by Shell smash and focus sash, gen 8 BH is quite different. Only decent Regileki set imo would look like this:

Regieleki @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Inferno
- Destiny Bond/filler
- Filler/hypnosis

Other would be

Regieleki @ Focus Sash
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky webs
- Spore
- filler
- Filler

But easy to distinguish and you don't really want a whole mon only dedicated to getting up hazards.

Fair. On another note entirely, this next one isn't necessarily overpowered or anything but I find it hilarious how Body Press basically turns Shuckle into the world's most weirdly overspecialized sweeper.

 

[a loser]

Quick announcement that XxSevagxX has joined the BH Council! He'll be helping us in making tiering decisions and creating resources. Normally we wouldn't go for users with X's on either side of their name, but his metagame insight is just too valuable to pass up.