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Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Merritt
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We've had this discussion before, assuming experience is evenly distributed across teams is fallacious for the exact reason Infernape2018 says, the vast majority of people will normalize their levels to an even degree across their team.
Saying something is "given better treatment" is a meaningless statement, the only thing it implies is that you used one thing more than another against the litany of random trainers and wild encounters.
The primary point of comparison comes to how each Pokemon performs at comparable levels against the major boss battles among other, at which point the maximum level disparity you're likely to see does indeed fall within 2 levels.
To that point, and yours, the only time where you're likely to see a meaningful level disparity is during the E4 run itself when level normalization is not a priority as opposed to simply defeating the enemy and where experience concentration can be observed on Pokemon which specifically favorable matchups. Ironically this exp group advantage cannot even be meaningfully realized via concentration because Zam sees the same negative matchups as Gardevoir and neither is likely to achieve the experience gains from Sidney or Phoebe - and of course these fights in particular are ones that Gardevoir is in fact able to solo if one were specifically inclined (reference my run on page 32) due to the superiority of its physical bulk.
Saying something is "given better treatment" is a meaningless statement, the only thing it implies is that you used one thing more than another against the litany of random trainers and wild encounters.
The primary point of comparison comes to how each Pokemon performs at comparable levels against the major boss battles among other, at which point the maximum level disparity you're likely to see does indeed fall within 2 levels.
To that point, and yours, the only time where you're likely to see a meaningful level disparity is during the E4 run itself when level normalization is not a priority as opposed to simply defeating the enemy and where experience concentration can be observed on Pokemon which specifically favorable matchups. Ironically this exp group advantage cannot even be meaningfully realized via concentration because Zam sees the same negative matchups as Gardevoir and neither is likely to achieve the experience gains from Sidney or Phoebe - and of course these fights in particular are ones that Gardevoir is in fact able to solo if one were specifically inclined (reference my run on page 32) due to the superiority of its physical bulk.
Regardless, no one is arguing that Alakazam isn't an S rank Pokemon, it clearly is (and Kadabra clearly isn't). The argument is simply that Gardevoir is also S tier, both on its own merits (objective fact in my opinion) and due its direct comparability to Zam and reasonable argument for superiority.
Update 4(Flan cakes)
Not much to say about everything up to Flannery, other than I elected to give Beautifly the Psychic TM from the Game Corner. Overheat is better on Loudred and Tbolt and Ice Beam can be gotten after Norman for free lol.
Vs Flancakes(Everyone is 28, how's that for balance)
Marshtomp(28): spam mud shot all day, every day.
Results: S+ maximum
Kirlia(28): Numel's Magnitude makes it risky to set up on, so it's better to just 2HKO it with Psychic. Slugma's Overheat only does 1/2 at +1, making it easy set up bait to +3 with a Potion to OHKO Slugma. I used another Potion to tank an Overheat and get two more CM boost to OHKO Camerupt and Torokal
Results: Taking only 1-2 Potions to easily sweep and having easy set-up bait in Slugma(or Numel with an X Defend) this is an easy S/A Tier
Vigoroth(28): This is actually unfair AF. Numel just can't kill you with any of it's moves, with it's strongest Overheat only doing 3/4 of your health. If it derps with Magnitude or Bulldoze, you can Encore to easily get to +6 and murder her team.
results: lol S++. Not even Marshtomp shits on this that hard.
Loudred(28): You can beat Numel and Slugma in an easy 1v1 with Strength(2HKOs). Camerup nearly kills from full with Overheat(probable range) and there's no way Loudred can outdamage it's other moves. Same for Torokal.
Results: Wattson No.2. E Tier
N/A: Beautifly because why would I bother
Caught Sandshrew after this on route 111(Desert) and good lord dat movepool. Taught it Dig and Rock Tomb to fix that. All i can say for it is fuck Baltoy.
Edit: oops forgot to put in my team. Also wanted to make a early-mid game summary of my team
Marshtomp, Naughty Lvl 28 68/60/52/45/44/42 Tackle/Bide/Mud Shot/Water Gun
lol s tier
Loudred, Hasty Lvl 28 90/49/29/53/36/42 Strength/Overheat/Howl/Astonish
It's been servicable at best on routes but the lack of good coverage until now has been bad on routes with mons like Koffing and Skarmory. It doesn't do anything at all in major fights other than pick off the small fry that they have while failing to do not against the "real" threats of the early-mid game. Considering that it doesn't evolve for long, I can see a case for F Tier on everyone's favorite loudmouth.
Beautifly, Lonely Lvl 28 77/59/37/61/41/45 Gust/MEga Drain/Psychic/Stun Spore
Fantastic route cleaner during this part but does diddly squat outside of that. It falls off hard during these gym fights, as it's medicore a best bulk and typing hinders it greatly. I can still see a case for D Tier considering it now has Psychic and gets Silver Wind in a couple of levels, but i'm starting to see it's stats fall behind.
Kirlia, Modest Lvl 28 65/27/33/51/39/44
Yeah OK this is a S Tier in my eyes. The babying period is overestimated af and as Punchshroom stated, there's enough experience to get to Level 6 in which Ralts can now fight decently well against route trainers. Access to CM and Psychic early give it an overall better matchup agaisnt Wattson and Flannery, and Shock Wave grants it the coverage to break down walls.Norman is most likely a loss unless she evolves, but that shouldn't detract from being awesome lol.
Vigoroth, Naughty Lvl 28 93/57/55/39/35/62
So here's the thing: Slakoth sucks ass until it evolves into Vigoroth, with mediocore firepower and Truant to just shit on it's viability. Once it becomes Vigoroth howe ver, it bodies. With Bulk Up to boost it's Attack and solid STABs in Fury Swipes -> Secret Power -> Return. Yawn, Slack Off and Encore makes it able to take weak opponents(Slugma and Electrike) and turn them into set-up fodder. This performance is more than enough for B tier.
Not much to say about everything up to Flannery, other than I elected to give Beautifly the Psychic TM from the Game Corner. Overheat is better on Loudred and Tbolt and Ice Beam can be gotten after Norman for free lol.
Vs Flancakes(Everyone is 28, how's that for balance)
Marshtomp(28): spam mud shot all day, every day.
Results: S+ maximum
Kirlia(28): Numel's Magnitude makes it risky to set up on, so it's better to just 2HKO it with Psychic. Slugma's Overheat only does 1/2 at +1, making it easy set up bait to +3 with a Potion to OHKO Slugma. I used another Potion to tank an Overheat and get two more CM boost to OHKO Camerupt and Torokal
Results: Taking only 1-2 Potions to easily sweep and having easy set-up bait in Slugma(or Numel with an X Defend) this is an easy S/A Tier
Vigoroth(28): This is actually unfair AF. Numel just can't kill you with any of it's moves, with it's strongest Overheat only doing 3/4 of your health. If it derps with Magnitude or Bulldoze, you can Encore to easily get to +6 and murder her team.
results: lol S++. Not even Marshtomp shits on this that hard.
Loudred(28): You can beat Numel and Slugma in an easy 1v1 with Strength(2HKOs). Camerup nearly kills from full with Overheat(probable range) and there's no way Loudred can outdamage it's other moves. Same for Torokal.
Results: Wattson No.2. E Tier
N/A: Beautifly because why would I bother
Caught Sandshrew after this on route 111(Desert) and good lord dat movepool. Taught it Dig and Rock Tomb to fix that. All i can say for it is fuck Baltoy.
Edit: oops forgot to put in my team. Also wanted to make a early-mid game summary of my team
Marshtomp, Naughty Lvl 28 68/60/52/45/44/42 Tackle/Bide/Mud Shot/Water Gun
lol s tier
Loudred, Hasty Lvl 28 90/49/29/53/36/42 Strength/Overheat/Howl/Astonish
It's been servicable at best on routes but the lack of good coverage until now has been bad on routes with mons like Koffing and Skarmory. It doesn't do anything at all in major fights other than pick off the small fry that they have while failing to do not against the "real" threats of the early-mid game. Considering that it doesn't evolve for long, I can see a case for F Tier on everyone's favorite loudmouth.
Beautifly, Lonely Lvl 28 77/59/37/61/41/45 Gust/MEga Drain/Psychic/Stun Spore
Fantastic route cleaner during this part but does diddly squat outside of that. It falls off hard during these gym fights, as it's medicore a best bulk and typing hinders it greatly. I can still see a case for D Tier considering it now has Psychic and gets Silver Wind in a couple of levels, but i'm starting to see it's stats fall behind.
Kirlia, Modest Lvl 28 65/27/33/51/39/44
Yeah OK this is a S Tier in my eyes. The babying period is overestimated af and as Punchshroom stated, there's enough experience to get to Level 6 in which Ralts can now fight decently well against route trainers. Access to CM and Psychic early give it an overall better matchup agaisnt Wattson and Flannery, and Shock Wave grants it the coverage to break down walls.Norman is most likely a loss unless she evolves, but that shouldn't detract from being awesome lol.
Vigoroth, Naughty Lvl 28 93/57/55/39/35/62
So here's the thing: Slakoth sucks ass until it evolves into Vigoroth, with mediocore firepower and Truant to just shit on it's viability. Once it becomes Vigoroth howe ver, it bodies. With Bulk Up to boost it's Attack and solid STABs in Fury Swipes -> Secret Power -> Return. Yawn, Slack Off and Encore makes it able to take weak opponents(Slugma and Electrike) and turn them into set-up fodder. This performance is more than enough for B tier.
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I think considering EXP growth can be insightful and isn't something that should necessarily be ignored, but I don't think its necessarily relevant to this argument if Gardevoir can still perform well even at lower levels than Alakazam due to its superior bulk and coverage, not saying it performs better but it at least performs comparable to Zam. However the reason I do think it can play a roll in tier arguments is because if you need to train Pokemon of varying growth curves to the same level to achieve the same performance, and if it takes more time to train one then there is an advantage that the other Pokemon holds. The issue being I don't think the disadvantage given to Gardevoir due to its EXP curve is enough to impact its usage through the game as it still is able to find consistent performance. (I hope this made sense)
UPDATE 5(Slakoff)
Sandshrew is horrendous to train IMO as it's weak, specially frail and slow af making it literally unable to fight anything in the desert. Had to switch-train it to Sandslash at which it became somewhat OK at cleaning route trainers in the desert. However, it did awful against the Norman trainers, making me think it doesn't have a case for E Tier imo.
VS Norman.
Marshtomp(29): It's Marshtomp: it beats everything but Slaking.
Results: A Tier
Kirlia/Gardevoir(29/30): Kirlia can't even set up on Spinda as Facade 2HKO's(roll), making it just safer to kill it at +2. Then Vigoroth comes in, outspeeds and 2HKO's with Slash.
Garde: Evolution sure does change perspectives doesn't it. Now Spinda only 4HKO and most of the time it spams Teeter Dance, which Trace makes it worthless. Easiest +4 ever to simply outspeed and OHKO everything.
Reslts: Kirlia=trash Garde=lol Kirlia=F Garde=S
Edit: You don't even need +4, +3 will do as Slaking's Sitrus Berry puts it out of healing range.
Vigoroth(29): Confusion is a bitch, so make sure to bring Persim Berries to negate this. Other than that, Spinda is prime set-up bait with Bulk Up/Encore. Get to +6 and lol Norman.
Results: Spinda is trash and can ruin set-up, so A Tier is probably best.
Beautifly(29): TFW Psychic can't even 2HKO Spinda. You beat it 1v1 tho, but not anything else without luck from para, and Slaking is just lol ru serious.
Results: Too much luck is required to even make an effect tbh, and if you can only beat Spinda 1v1 that's not very notable. E Tier.
Loudred(29): Overheat does1/2 while Facade rolls into a 3HKO, so Overheat+Strength kills it. Then Slaking comes in and absolutely DESTROYS with Facade. If you switch it in later, don't bother as Linooe and Vigoroth 2HKO you with Facade and you can't outspeed nor outdamage them.
Results: same as beauty. E Tier.
Sandslash(25): Lol tbh didn't get to see much besides beating Slaking 1v1 with Dig+Rock Tomb+Sandstorm.
Team atm
Marshtomp, Naughty Lvl 29 68/62/54/47/45/44
Loudred, Hasty Lvl 29 90/51/30/54/37/44
Beautifly, Lonely Lvl 29 77/61/39/66/42/47
Vigoroth, Naughty Lvl 29 93/59/57/41/36/64
Gardevoir, Modest Lvl 30 85/45/52/92/76/63
Sandslash, Docile Lvl 25 73/56/62/31/36/31
Sandshrew is horrendous to train IMO as it's weak, specially frail and slow af making it literally unable to fight anything in the desert. Had to switch-train it to Sandslash at which it became somewhat OK at cleaning route trainers in the desert. However, it did awful against the Norman trainers, making me think it doesn't have a case for E Tier imo.
VS Norman.
Marshtomp(29): It's Marshtomp: it beats everything but Slaking.
Results: A Tier
Kirlia/Gardevoir(29/30): Kirlia can't even set up on Spinda as Facade 2HKO's(roll), making it just safer to kill it at +2. Then Vigoroth comes in, outspeeds and 2HKO's with Slash.
Garde: Evolution sure does change perspectives doesn't it. Now Spinda only 4HKO and most of the time it spams Teeter Dance, which Trace makes it worthless. Easiest +4 ever to simply outspeed and OHKO everything.
Reslts: Kirlia=trash Garde=lol Kirlia=F Garde=S
Edit: You don't even need +4, +3 will do as Slaking's Sitrus Berry puts it out of healing range.
Vigoroth(29): Confusion is a bitch, so make sure to bring Persim Berries to negate this. Other than that, Spinda is prime set-up bait with Bulk Up/Encore. Get to +6 and lol Norman.
Results: Spinda is trash and can ruin set-up, so A Tier is probably best.
Beautifly(29): TFW Psychic can't even 2HKO Spinda. You beat it 1v1 tho, but not anything else without luck from para, and Slaking is just lol ru serious.
Results: Too much luck is required to even make an effect tbh, and if you can only beat Spinda 1v1 that's not very notable. E Tier.
Loudred(29): Overheat does1/2 while Facade rolls into a 3HKO, so Overheat+Strength kills it. Then Slaking comes in and absolutely DESTROYS with Facade. If you switch it in later, don't bother as Linooe and Vigoroth 2HKO you with Facade and you can't outspeed nor outdamage them.
Results: same as beauty. E Tier.
Sandslash(25): Lol tbh didn't get to see much besides beating Slaking 1v1 with Dig+Rock Tomb+Sandstorm.
Team atm
Marshtomp, Naughty Lvl 29 68/62/54/47/45/44
Loudred, Hasty Lvl 29 90/51/30/54/37/44
Beautifly, Lonely Lvl 29 77/61/39/66/42/47
Vigoroth, Naughty Lvl 29 93/59/57/41/36/64
Gardevoir, Modest Lvl 30 85/45/52/92/76/63
Sandslash, Docile Lvl 25 73/56/62/31/36/31
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Adding to it, and I'm pretty sure it was stated earlier, I just feel whatever slow exp growth it has is made up for great matchups. Good matchups = more/quicker kills = more exp. More bulk might factor in this too, since surviving sometimes is the difference whenever you get that precious exp or not.
If the exp curve difference is so great that a pokemon is going to be 8 levels higher than another by endgame with equal EXP, that absolutely should be considered. Yes, a lot of people (myself included) train pokemon to be equal level instead of experience, but a pokemon who needs that much less exp to level up is still going to impact your team since that lets you put more exp into your other pokemon--that extra exp doesn't just disappear into the aether. So rather than Grumpig being 57 while the rest of the team is 49 as in sumwun's example, that might look like the whole team being level 51-52 instead.
This might be a more concise and effective way of putting what I wanted to say across. Kudos.
Update 5
Not much has changed on my team, other than that I evolved Kirlia.
VS Norman
Vigoroth (Level 30): 2HKOs Spinda, Vigoroth, and Linoone with Strength, while Norman's mons 4-5HKO it. Unfrotruanetly, Vigo's sweep is cut short by the brick wall named Slaking, who is 10HKOed by Strength, while its Facade 2HKOes.
Summary: B-Tier, but there could be an argument made for A-Rank. The only thing keeping the sloth from A-rank is that it is hopelessly destroyed by slaking.
Gardevoir (Level 30): Set up Calm Mind on Spinda, and use potions if need be, as spinda can only 4HKO you with Facade at best. At +4, Gardiveor outspeeds and OHKOs every mon with Psychic.
Summary: S-Tier, Just be aware that you will need to use potions when you set up.
Marshtomp (Level 30): Marshtomp 3HKOs Spinda, Vigoroth, and Linoone with Mud Shot, while Spinda/ Vigoroth 5-4HKOs with Facade/ Slash and Linoone 3HKOes with Slash. However, Marshtomp soon runs into a brick wall named slaking. See Vigoroth's performance against Slaking, just replace Strength with Mud Shot.
Summary: Honestly, the only saving grace Marshtomp has is great bulk that allows it to survive multiple hits. Its mediocre damage output in this battle hurts it. B-Tier.
Manetric (Level 30): 2HKOs Spinda, Vigoroth, mand Linnone with Spark, and is only 2HKOed by Linnone. However, it runs into a bri...ok, I think you get the drill by now, Manetric is 2HKOed by Slaking's Return, while Spark only 5-4HKOs.
Summary: Read Marshtomp and Vigoroth's summary. B-Tier.
Skarmory (Level 30): 2HKOs Spinda and Linoone, and 3HKOs Vigoroth with Steel Wing, while Skarm laughs at the feeble attempts to damage it. Slaking is tough, as Steel Wing 6HKOs it, and with King's Sitrus berry and counter (which 2HKOs), Skarmory should sit out.
Summary: B-tier, due to its massive Defense stat that walls 3/4ths of Norman's team.
Team:
Marshtomp: Level 30/ Impish nature
Gardevoir: Level 31/ Timid Nature
Vigoroth: Level 30/ Timid nature
Manetric: Level 30/ Serious Nature
Skarmory: Level 30/ Rash Nature
Not much has changed on my team, other than that I evolved Kirlia.
VS Norman
Vigoroth (Level 30): 2HKOs Spinda, Vigoroth, and Linoone with Strength, while Norman's mons 4-5HKO it. Unfrotruanetly, Vigo's sweep is cut short by the brick wall named Slaking, who is 10HKOed by Strength, while its Facade 2HKOes.
Summary: B-Tier, but there could be an argument made for A-Rank. The only thing keeping the sloth from A-rank is that it is hopelessly destroyed by slaking.
Gardevoir (Level 30): Set up Calm Mind on Spinda, and use potions if need be, as spinda can only 4HKO you with Facade at best. At +4, Gardiveor outspeeds and OHKOs every mon with Psychic.
Summary: S-Tier, Just be aware that you will need to use potions when you set up.
Marshtomp (Level 30): Marshtomp 3HKOs Spinda, Vigoroth, and Linoone with Mud Shot, while Spinda/ Vigoroth 5-4HKOs with Facade/ Slash and Linoone 3HKOes with Slash. However, Marshtomp soon runs into a brick wall named slaking. See Vigoroth's performance against Slaking, just replace Strength with Mud Shot.
Summary: Honestly, the only saving grace Marshtomp has is great bulk that allows it to survive multiple hits. Its mediocre damage output in this battle hurts it. B-Tier.
Manetric (Level 30): 2HKOs Spinda, Vigoroth, mand Linnone with Spark, and is only 2HKOed by Linnone. However, it runs into a bri...ok, I think you get the drill by now, Manetric is 2HKOed by Slaking's Return, while Spark only 5-4HKOs.
Summary: Read Marshtomp and Vigoroth's summary. B-Tier.
Skarmory (Level 30): 2HKOs Spinda and Linoone, and 3HKOs Vigoroth with Steel Wing, while Skarm laughs at the feeble attempts to damage it. Slaking is tough, as Steel Wing 6HKOs it, and with King's Sitrus berry and counter (which 2HKOs), Skarmory should sit out.
Summary: B-tier, due to its massive Defense stat that walls 3/4ths of Norman's team.
Team:
Marshtomp: Level 30/ Impish nature
Gardevoir: Level 31/ Timid Nature
Vigoroth: Level 30/ Timid nature
Manetric: Level 30/ Serious Nature
Skarmory: Level 30/ Rash Nature
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So I got hold of a Ruby Cart yesterday to add to my collection, is there anything you guys want testing/looking at again? Already got an offer of Plusle from Discord, but any other interesting mons would be worth a shout.
Pretty much everything is listed in a tier now, so we should be looking to get this wrapped up sooner rather than later! I don't really disagree with anything at this point on the list. Probably going to look at Whismur (cause E seems kinda low), Torkoal and we already have plenty of opinions on Mudkip. Still early game yet, so if anyone wants me to try anything in particular let me know!
Pretty much everything is listed in a tier now, so we should be looking to get this wrapped up sooner rather than later! I don't really disagree with anything at this point on the list. Probably going to look at Whismur (cause E seems kinda low), Torkoal and we already have plenty of opinions on Mudkip. Still early game yet, so if anyone wants me to try anything in particular let me know!
Definitely give Torkoal a go, I've been pleasantly surprised by it. Whismur sux. Look at Grimer and Girafarig imo, could use the extra opinions.
Reminder that Plusle is stupid rare in Ruby, so good luck hunting it.
Whismur is gutter trash, Loudred is barely passable but still annoyingly slow, Lv 40 Exploud is hella not worth it.
One mon you could test out is Psyduck, who has decent Speed for a Water-type and gets Calm Mind access, so I wonder if it can stand alongside the other B Rank Water-types. That said, I'd only recommend this if the Calm Mind TM is available for it.
Whismur is gutter trash, Loudred is barely passable but still annoyingly slow, Lv 40 Exploud is hella not worth it.
One mon you could test out is Psyduck, who has decent Speed for a Water-type and gets Calm Mind access, so I wonder if it can stand alongside the other B Rank Water-types. That said, I'd only recommend this if the Calm Mind TM is available for it.
I believe Punchshroom meant in the sense of not having a different teammate stake a claim to the Calm Mind TM.
I'll have an update by the end of the week, was hoping to take into account a couple of the current runs but they seem to have stalled/are going slowly.
Sorry for the long wait, but it's time for update 6!
Lots of things have changed on my team. I taught Marshtomp Surf and Ice Beam, and I evolved it. I evolved Vigorith, and Taught Slaking Hyper Beam. I also taught Manetric Thunderbolt, Gardevoir Shock Wave, and Skarmory Fly.
VS Winona
Slaking (Level 36): Hyper Beam OHKOs Swablu, Tropius, Peliper (be careful of PP, as it will try to stall with protect), and Altairia. Now, you may think that Skarmory walls it, due to its Steel type and 140 Base defense, but nope. Set up a guard Spe. on Skarm's 1st turn out, and 2HKO it with Hyper Beam. Also, on truant turns use Lecha Berries to restore pp to Hyper Beam.
Summary: S-Tier. Hyper Beam destroys everything that Winona can throw at you.
Gardevoir (Level 35): Set up a Calm Mind on Swablu (watch out for Perish Song, as it will end your sweep), and OHKO it with Shock Wave, and 2HKO Tropius with Psychic. Then, when Peliper comes out, CM again on the protect. At +2, Peliper and Skarmory are OHKOed by Shock Wave, and Altairia is 2/OHKOed by Psychic.
Summary: S-Tier, however, if Swablu uses Perish Song turn 1, your sweep is cut short.
Swampert (Level 36): If you get the Ice Beam TM from the abandoned ship, this fight is easy. Ice Beam OHKOs Swablu, Tropius, and Altairia.
Peliper and Skarmory are a little tougher, but Peli falls to 2/3 Ice beams, while Skarm is 2HKOed by Surf.
Summary: Teach Pert Ice Beam, and this is an S-Tier Matchup. The only mon that Pert slightly struggles with is Peiliper, but it goes down to a few Ice Beams.
Manetric (Level 35): T-bolt OHKOs Swablu, Skarmory, Peliper, and 2HKOs Tropius. Avoid Altairia, however, as Thunderbolt only 3HKOs, and after a Dragon Dance, Altairia outspeeds and Earthquake 2HKOs.
Summary: Until Altairia, this is a S-Tier Matchup. Since Manetric can only win against Alt its a crit, this matchup is A-Tier.
Skarmory (Level 35): 2HKOs Swablu with Steel Wing/ Fly, 2HKOs Tropius and 3HKOs Peliper with Fly, and 3HKOs Altaira with Fly/Steel Wing. Avoid Skarmory, since it resists all of your moves. Despite not doing that much damage to Winona's team, Skarmory is able to wall most of the 'mons, since the only attack that Skarm doesn't resist is Water Gun.
Summary: B-Tier. While it doesn't do that much damage, Skarm resists pretty much everything Winona can throw at it.
Team:
Swampert: Level 36/ Impish nature
Gardevoir: Level 35/ Timid Nature
Slaking: Level 36/ Timid nature
Manetric: Level 35/ Serious Nature
Skarmory: Level 35/ Rash Nature
Lots of things have changed on my team. I taught Marshtomp Surf and Ice Beam, and I evolved it. I evolved Vigorith, and Taught Slaking Hyper Beam. I also taught Manetric Thunderbolt, Gardevoir Shock Wave, and Skarmory Fly.
VS Winona
Slaking (Level 36): Hyper Beam OHKOs Swablu, Tropius, Peliper (be careful of PP, as it will try to stall with protect), and Altairia. Now, you may think that Skarmory walls it, due to its Steel type and 140 Base defense, but nope. Set up a guard Spe. on Skarm's 1st turn out, and 2HKO it with Hyper Beam. Also, on truant turns use Lecha Berries to restore pp to Hyper Beam.
Summary: S-Tier. Hyper Beam destroys everything that Winona can throw at you.
Gardevoir (Level 35): Set up a Calm Mind on Swablu (watch out for Perish Song, as it will end your sweep), and OHKO it with Shock Wave, and 2HKO Tropius with Psychic. Then, when Peliper comes out, CM again on the protect. At +2, Peliper and Skarmory are OHKOed by Shock Wave, and Altairia is 2/OHKOed by Psychic.
Summary: S-Tier, however, if Swablu uses Perish Song turn 1, your sweep is cut short.
Swampert (Level 36): If you get the Ice Beam TM from the abandoned ship, this fight is easy. Ice Beam OHKOs Swablu, Tropius, and Altairia.
Peliper and Skarmory are a little tougher, but Peli falls to 2/3 Ice beams, while Skarm is 2HKOed by Surf.
Summary: Teach Pert Ice Beam, and this is an S-Tier Matchup. The only mon that Pert slightly struggles with is Peiliper, but it goes down to a few Ice Beams.
Manetric (Level 35): T-bolt OHKOs Swablu, Skarmory, Peliper, and 2HKOs Tropius. Avoid Altairia, however, as Thunderbolt only 3HKOs, and after a Dragon Dance, Altairia outspeeds and Earthquake 2HKOs.
Summary: Until Altairia, this is a S-Tier Matchup. Since Manetric can only win against Alt its a crit, this matchup is A-Tier.
Skarmory (Level 35): 2HKOs Swablu with Steel Wing/ Fly, 2HKOs Tropius and 3HKOs Peliper with Fly, and 3HKOs Altaira with Fly/Steel Wing. Avoid Skarmory, since it resists all of your moves. Despite not doing that much damage to Winona's team, Skarmory is able to wall most of the 'mons, since the only attack that Skarm doesn't resist is Water Gun.
Summary: B-Tier. While it doesn't do that much damage, Skarm resists pretty much everything Winona can throw at it.
Team:
Swampert: Level 36/ Impish nature
Gardevoir: Level 35/ Timid Nature
Slaking: Level 36/ Timid nature
Manetric: Level 35/ Serious Nature
Skarmory: Level 35/ Rash Nature
I know this post is overdue by almost 2 months. Am I supposed to apologize for stuff like this? Anyways, I don't like posting a new post every time I beat a gym leader because I think that clutters the thread, so here's my update for everything up to Flannery.
I chose Torchic this time because it can learn cut but not bullet seed. When I first went through Route 104, I skipped all the trainers. I battled them later with my newly caught level 6 Shroomish. Even though Shroomish had weak attack stats and sometimes took 4 to 8 turns to 1v1 something, it was bulky enough to solo almost everything with no item support after switch training (switching Shroomish out first turn and letting Torchic handle everything) only once. (it occasionally had trouble with Shroomishes and Nincadas)
1:06
Shroomish
Level: 16
Stats: 49/20/27/16/29/16
Careful nature
- bullet seed
- tackle
- mega drain
- leech seed
Shroomish
Level: 16
Stats: 49/20/27/16/29/16
Careful nature
- bullet seed
- tackle
- mega drain
- leech seed
Apparently Roxanne is not too hard if you have mega drain.
May wasn't much harder. Torkoal knows ember and would have been threatening if it really USED ember. But instead it just spammed curse until it died from leech seed. Mega drain was a 2HKO on Mudkip.
I caught a level 10 Magikarp at Dewford Town. Then I went to Route 106, where there were 2 fishermen that were actually kind of difficult. Their Tentacools outsped Shroomish, knew supersonic and poison sting, and almost haxed Shroomish to death.
I wanted to have a Kadabra before Brawly, so I went through Granite Cave. In b2f where wild Abras are level 10, I ran around and threw my great ball at every Abra in sight, soft resetting whenever it escaped or had a bad nature. After catching 3 with -SpA natures, I finally got a good Abra.
After defeating all of Brawly's gym trainers with Abra in my first slot and holding my exp. share (and with Shroomish still super bulky but relying on leech seed for damage), it only reached level 14. To evolve Kadabra, I had to fight more trainers on Route 109. Magikarp got the exp. share after Kadabra evolved.
May wasn't much harder. Torkoal knows ember and would have been threatening if it really USED ember. But instead it just spammed curse until it died from leech seed. Mega drain was a 2HKO on Mudkip.
I caught a level 10 Magikarp at Dewford Town. Then I went to Route 106, where there were 2 fishermen that were actually kind of difficult. Their Tentacools outsped Shroomish, knew supersonic and poison sting, and almost haxed Shroomish to death.
I wanted to have a Kadabra before Brawly, so I went through Granite Cave. In b2f where wild Abras are level 10, I ran around and threw my great ball at every Abra in sight, soft resetting whenever it escaped or had a bad nature. After catching 3 with -SpA natures, I finally got a good Abra.
After defeating all of Brawly's gym trainers with Abra in my first slot and holding my exp. share (and with Shroomish still super bulky but relying on leech seed for damage), it only reached level 14. To evolve Kadabra, I had to fight more trainers on Route 109. Magikarp got the exp. share after Kadabra evolved.
(forgot to record time, probably around 2:30)
Kadabra @ Oran berry
Ability: synchronize
Level: 16
Stats: 40/17/19/48/28/36
Quiet nature
- confusion
- teleport
Shroomish @ Oran berry
Level: 20
Stats: 58/24/33/19/36/19
Careful nature
- bullet seed
- tackle
- mega drain
- leech seed
Magikarp @ exp. share
Level: 12
Stats: 30/10/19/10/12/27
Quirky nature
- splash
Kadabra @ Oran berry
Ability: synchronize
Level: 16
Stats: 40/17/19/48/28/36
Quiet nature
- confusion
- teleport
Shroomish @ Oran berry
Level: 20
Stats: 58/24/33/19/36/19
Careful nature
- bullet seed
- tackle
- mega drain
- leech seed
Magikarp @ exp. share
Level: 12
Stats: 30/10/19/10/12/27
Quirky nature
- splash
Apparently Brawly is not too hard if you have confusion and 120 base special attack.
Without Kadabra: Shroomish defeats Machop and Meditite just fine by spamming bullet seed and occasionally using mega drain when damaged. However, Makuhita knew vital throw, so it was able to 2HKO Shroomish after only 2 or 3 bulk ups. Also, the Sitrus berry and super potion were enough for the AI to afford being dumb.
Without Shroomish or Kadabra: no
Other than Marshtomp's mud shot one-shotting Kadabra, Route 110 May was easy. After defeating her and getting the itemfinder, I teleported back to Slateport to look for heart scales on Route 109.
Without Kadabra: Shroomish defeats Machop and Meditite just fine by spamming bullet seed and occasionally using mega drain when damaged. However, Makuhita knew vital throw, so it was able to 2HKO Shroomish after only 2 or 3 bulk ups. Also, the Sitrus berry and super potion were enough for the AI to afford being dumb.
Without Shroomish or Kadabra: no
Other than Marshtomp's mud shot one-shotting Kadabra, Route 110 May was easy. After defeating her and getting the itemfinder, I teleported back to Slateport to look for heart scales on Route 109.
3:45
Breloom @ silk scarf
Level: 24
Stats: 69/72/49/31/42/40
Careful nature
- headbutt
- mach punch
- leech seed
- bulk up
Gyarados
Level: 21
Stats: 78/64/39/34/52/45
Quirky nature
- splash
- tackle
- bite
Kadabra @ Oran berry
Ability: synchronize
Level: 24
Stats: 56/24/26/71/41/52
Quiet nature
- psybeam
- confusion
- reflect
- teleport
Breloom @ silk scarf
Level: 24
Stats: 69/72/49/31/42/40
Careful nature
- headbutt
- mach punch
- leech seed
- bulk up
Gyarados
Level: 21
Stats: 78/64/39/34/52/45
Quirky nature
- splash
- tackle
- bite
Kadabra @ Oran berry
Ability: synchronize
Level: 24
Stats: 56/24/26/71/41/52
Quiet nature
- psybeam
- confusion
- reflect
- teleport
With Breloom: Voltorb immediately self destructs and takes over half of Breloom's HP. Breloom outsped Electrike, and it used bulk up then headbutt while Electrike used howl and then got one-shot. Mach punch nearly one-shot Magneton, which used thunder wave that turn. Breloom used another bulk up as Wattson used another super potion, and mach punch one-shot in the next turn. Manectric used howl and was defeated by headbutt and mach punch. Breloom did move 4 turns in a row while paralyzed. The chance of this happening (given that Breloom attempts to move 4 turns in a row while paralyzed) is 81/256, which is less than 1/3. Also I realize this goes a lot smoother if Breloom uses bulk up twice against Electrike.
With Kadabra: Psybeam nearly one-shots Voltorb (who luckily doesn't self destruct) and cleanly one-shots Electrike. It just barely 3HKO'd Magneton, but Kadabra got hit by thunder wave. Manectric used howl and 2 shock waves, which left Kadabra with 1 HP. Kadabra managed to 3HKO Manectric. I definitely would have lost if I wasn't so lucky with paralysis.
With Gyarados: no
The team rolled through the next few routes pretty easily, except when Maxie's Mightyena's sand attack made mach punch miss 4 times.
With Kadabra: Psybeam nearly one-shots Voltorb (who luckily doesn't self destruct) and cleanly one-shots Electrike. It just barely 3HKO'd Magneton, but Kadabra got hit by thunder wave. Manectric used howl and 2 shock waves, which left Kadabra with 1 HP. Kadabra managed to 3HKO Manectric. I definitely would have lost if I wasn't so lucky with paralysis.
With Gyarados: no
The team rolled through the next few routes pretty easily, except when Maxie's Mightyena's sand attack made mach punch miss 4 times.
5:19
Breloom @ soothe bell/silk scarf
Level: 30
Stats: 84/90/61/39/51/51
Careful nature
- return
- mach punch
- leech seed
- bulk up
Gyarados @ silk scarf
Level: 26
Stats: 94/79/48/41/64/55
Quirky nature
- thrash
- strength
- bite
- dragon rage
Kadabra @ Oran berry
Ability: synchronize
Level: 30
Stats: 68/30/32/89/50/66
Quiet nature
- psybeam
- shock wave
- recover
- teleport
Breloom @ soothe bell/silk scarf
Level: 30
Stats: 84/90/61/39/51/51
Careful nature
- return
- mach punch
- leech seed
- bulk up
Gyarados @ silk scarf
Level: 26
Stats: 94/79/48/41/64/55
Quirky nature
- thrash
- strength
- bite
- dragon rage
Kadabra @ Oran berry
Ability: synchronize
Level: 30
Stats: 68/30/32/89/50/66
Quiet nature
- psybeam
- shock wave
- recover
- teleport
Breloom and Gyarados: Breloom used bulk up as Numel used sunny day, so I had to use return the next turn or risk getting one-shot by sun-boosted overheat. +1 return unfortunately couldn't one-shot Camerupt, so Breloom was promptly incinterated. Gyarados finished off Camerupt and easily 2HKO'd Slugma. Despite Torkoal paralyzing and attracting Gyarados, Gyarados was able to win with a strength and 2 dragon rages.
Breloom and Kadabra: Numel didn't use overheat for some reason, so Breloom got to use bulk up twice. It then proceeds to one-shot Numel, Camerupt, and Slugma, and it took about half of Torkoal's HP in one hit before Torkoal one-shot Breloom with overheat. Kadabra took the other half with psybeam.
Gyarados and Kadabra: Kadabra easily one-shot Numel and Slugma and 2HKO'd Camerupt. I sent out Gyarados against Torkoal and got attracted again (but not paralyzed). Just like before, Gyarados won the 1v1 with a strength and 2 dragon rages.
None of my Pokemon were able to solo Flannery, though all 3 were able to sweep everything except Torkoal. Gyarados might have swept if it was female.
Breloom and Kadabra: Numel didn't use overheat for some reason, so Breloom got to use bulk up twice. It then proceeds to one-shot Numel, Camerupt, and Slugma, and it took about half of Torkoal's HP in one hit before Torkoal one-shot Breloom with overheat. Kadabra took the other half with psybeam.
Gyarados and Kadabra: Kadabra easily one-shot Numel and Slugma and 2HKO'd Camerupt. I sent out Gyarados against Torkoal and got attracted again (but not paralyzed). Just like before, Gyarados won the 1v1 with a strength and 2 dragon rages.
None of my Pokemon were able to solo Flannery, though all 3 were able to sweep everything except Torkoal. Gyarados might have swept if it was female.
Manectric
Ability: static
- thunderbolt
- roar
- thunder wave
- bite -> return
This isn't very related to my playthrough, but...
This still stands, but now I think Camerupt is bad enough for D. It's a weak route cleaner, and it's useful against just about 3 major opponents. There might be a bunch of things in D that can outperform that. For example, I'll compare it to Torkoal.
Numel:
better attack stats after evolving
ground attacks are good against Flannery
Torkoal:
better at every stat but speed before Camerupt evolves
better physical defense for the whole game, which saves potions
less weak to water and ice
curse and protect are good in some major battles, especially Norman
relatively early flamethrower is good for route cleaning
None of these differences look significant enough to separate those 2 by a whole tier, so I think they should both be D.
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That set looks good, but I find Quick Attack to be more useful than Roar.
I think most Pokemon that can outspeed Manectric are used by trainers that use full restores whenever a Pokemon is in quick attack KO range. (and the Pokemon that don't outspeed Manectric are easier to defeat with return) Roar is at least useful for evasion users.
Please do keep in mind that Roar did not start skipping accuracy checks until gen 6.
The outspeeding part is less relevant than the conservation of Thunderbolt PP vs non-Full Restore enemies
Why are you giving Manectric Return?
Relatively legitimate question, its not something I've done or even remotely considered whenever I've used it.
Camel was fine when I used it ages ago but I'd say its a fair comparison to Muk, Grimer is better than Numel and Muk is slightly better than Camel but Numel evolves much earlier so its quite reasonable to have them be in the same tier.
Relatively legitimate question, its not something I've done or even remotely considered whenever I've used it.
Camel was fine when I used it ages ago but I'd say its a fair comparison to Muk, Grimer is better than Numel and Muk is slightly better than Camel but Numel evolves much earlier so its quite reasonable to have them be in the same tier.
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