It also says the same thing for New Bark Town, which only takes up 8 tiles of water before becoming Route 27. Tried finding a level 40 Tentacruel in those two spots, but failed to find one after a while of searching. Looks to be false information, in all honesty.
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GSC In-Game Tier List
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
- Status
I haven't forgotten the thread by the way. Will have an update by Thursday.
Tentative changes:
- B Furret. Definitely should be same tier as Raticate.
- C Celebi. Given scenarios C or lower Celebi seems best. Lacks a real STAB outside TMs (Psychic Giga Drain) and its movepool has some diversity but nothing ground breaking. Level 30 is kinda low too. Might go D Celebi in fact based on those reasons alone.
Still torn:
- Espeon up. Jellicent asked politely about this a few weeks ago. Issues include the happiness time frame and the small grind behind it. I would say to B might be okay, but that may mean re-evaluating B and A tiers a bit in the process. I'll still consider this in the background.
Nah not really:
- Exeggcute. Really poor argument (breeding like roflwut this is fucking ingame efficient tier playing).
- Growlithe to B/A. Unless I repurpose and heavily make it Crystal only I think Growlithe is a Pokemon that has a lot of problems for a Fire-type, but I will concede that Cyndaquil has a lot of issues as well and is why I won't completely dismiss the idea.
Want to give huge credit still towards users like atsync as well for testing niche mons with good information behind it. I'll look at consistency issues later on as well.
Tentative changes:
- B Furret. Definitely should be same tier as Raticate.
- C Celebi. Given scenarios C or lower Celebi seems best. Lacks a real STAB outside TMs (Psychic Giga Drain) and its movepool has some diversity but nothing ground breaking. Level 30 is kinda low too. Might go D Celebi in fact based on those reasons alone.
Still torn:
- Espeon up. Jellicent asked politely about this a few weeks ago. Issues include the happiness time frame and the small grind behind it. I would say to B might be okay, but that may mean re-evaluating B and A tiers a bit in the process. I'll still consider this in the background.
Nah not really:
- Exeggcute. Really poor argument (breeding like roflwut this is fucking ingame efficient tier playing).
- Growlithe to B/A. Unless I repurpose and heavily make it Crystal only I think Growlithe is a Pokemon that has a lot of problems for a Fire-type, but I will concede that Cyndaquil has a lot of issues as well and is why I won't completely dismiss the idea.
Want to give huge credit still towards users like atsync as well for testing niche mons with good information behind it. I'll look at consistency issues later on as well.
So I completed a casual run of Crystal so I guess I'll chime in with some thoughts on the four Pokémon (that I raised) I used in my run.
Totodile
Not much I can add that has already been said, really. Totodile does really well to bulldoze through the earlygame with moves such as Rage and Water Gun among other things and it gets Ice Punch early to deal with Grass-types such as Bayleef (though it still cannot one shot them). Even after the earlygame it does a handy job at making healthy contributions to the team and never really drops off. Annoyingly it couldn't one shot Lance's Dragonites with Ice Punch in the mid 40's level-wise, even with a NeverMeltIce on. Kanto was a solid as ever, just that it didn't get much use in Kanto against the major fights due to other members pulling their weight, but those sections have been researched enough and this line is undeniably Top Tier.
MUSCLE the Machop (No Extra Trade)
Used the in-game trade Machop here. Straight out of the box at Lv10, she does quite well at Whitney's Gym—especially once she gets Karate Chop—beating all trainers here maximised its chances of soloing Whitney at Lv17. She did just that because she 3HKOed Miltank with KC and had the bulk to survive three Rollouts in succession. Afterwards, she put in work for the Hideout and the mid-game gyms, before stepping aside for Ursaring to get some levels. Elite Four she didn't do much other than help out with Karen mostly due to typing and movepool, but her Kanto was actually fairly solid. Granted sher didn't get too much use mostly due to Entei leading at the time of most of the Gyms, but she put Brock in his place. Honestly, I think C-Rank could be underselling her capabilities (Noting that MUSCLE also gets the Exp. Boost) and that No Trade Machop could be worth moving up to B-Rank? Not really invested enough to make a solid case for it, but I think it might be worth a discussion at least.
Teddiursa (Ursaring Actually)
I held out for the Level 25 Ursaring here, but held out until the Rocket Invasion of Goldenrod as opposed to getting Surf. From the word go it basically put in work, ripping through the Rockets in Goldenrod and catching up level-wise to Feraligatr and Machoke at ~Lv40 by Clair, which it managed to solo without items. It was pretty much the trend here as Strength + Slash (alongside Earthquake TM) allowed it to one or two-shot most things. Speed is an issue as things did outspeed it every now and then, as well as the lack of resistances meaning most things if they got a hit in could put a dent in it. But nevertheless, its strength often made up for it. Agree with its placing.
Entei
For the other Pokémon I used, I decided to wait until I got the Master Ball and used it to catch whichever of it and Raikou showed its face first. Entei was that Pokémon. For those who want to maximise their chances of finding Raikou/Entei for the first time, I found this useful post on GlitchCity Forums that helped make the hunt shorter. Specifically this excerpt is what I used to find Entei:
When I think about the tier for this thing, D-Rank feels a little bit too low for Entei (and by extension, feels a little bit too low for Raikou, but I digress). I guess the reason why it is low in the first place is because of how much of a pain it is to encounter, let alone get (especially without Master Ball). But I think it might be worth considering moving up to C-Rank as a worst case scenario? I don't know.
Totodile
Not much I can add that has already been said, really. Totodile does really well to bulldoze through the earlygame with moves such as Rage and Water Gun among other things and it gets Ice Punch early to deal with Grass-types such as Bayleef (though it still cannot one shot them). Even after the earlygame it does a handy job at making healthy contributions to the team and never really drops off. Annoyingly it couldn't one shot Lance's Dragonites with Ice Punch in the mid 40's level-wise, even with a NeverMeltIce on. Kanto was a solid as ever, just that it didn't get much use in Kanto against the major fights due to other members pulling their weight, but those sections have been researched enough and this line is undeniably Top Tier.
MUSCLE the Machop (No Extra Trade)
Used the in-game trade Machop here. Straight out of the box at Lv10, she does quite well at Whitney's Gym—especially once she gets Karate Chop—beating all trainers here maximised its chances of soloing Whitney at Lv17. She did just that because she 3HKOed Miltank with KC and had the bulk to survive three Rollouts in succession. Afterwards, she put in work for the Hideout and the mid-game gyms, before stepping aside for Ursaring to get some levels. Elite Four she didn't do much other than help out with Karen mostly due to typing and movepool, but her Kanto was actually fairly solid. Granted sher didn't get too much use mostly due to Entei leading at the time of most of the Gyms, but she put Brock in his place. Honestly, I think C-Rank could be underselling her capabilities (Noting that MUSCLE also gets the Exp. Boost) and that No Trade Machop could be worth moving up to B-Rank? Not really invested enough to make a solid case for it, but I think it might be worth a discussion at least.
Teddiursa (Ursaring Actually)
I held out for the Level 25 Ursaring here, but held out until the Rocket Invasion of Goldenrod as opposed to getting Surf. From the word go it basically put in work, ripping through the Rockets in Goldenrod and catching up level-wise to Feraligatr and Machoke at ~Lv40 by Clair, which it managed to solo without items. It was pretty much the trend here as Strength + Slash (alongside Earthquake TM) allowed it to one or two-shot most things. Speed is an issue as things did outspeed it every now and then, as well as the lack of resistances meaning most things if they got a hit in could put a dent in it. But nevertheless, its strength often made up for it. Agree with its placing.
Entei
For the other Pokémon I used, I decided to wait until I got the Master Ball and used it to catch whichever of it and Raikou showed its face first. Entei was that Pokémon. For those who want to maximise their chances of finding Raikou/Entei for the first time, I found this useful post on GlitchCity Forums that helped make the hunt shorter. Specifically this excerpt is what I used to find Entei:
Anyway onto its performance. Considering catching Entei was the last thing I did before starting to head for the League (which I am basing this off, earlier Entei catches have it much better to the point where it's used in Crystal Speedruns nowadays), it had a fairly rough start, only having Ember for good Fire-type STAB (and its DMG output is bad, even with Charcoal and later Sunny Day) and its best coverage being Headbutt/Stomp (or Iron Tail but I didn't teach Entei Iron Tail). Its Elite Four was pretty rough and it didn't do much too useful other than outspeeding Dragonites and either picking them off with Stomp or Stomping them into KO range for Feraligatr's Ice Punch. Once we got to Kanto proper though, it started to get good. Sunny Day + Solar Beam was a good combo. It couldn't solo Surge, but it handily dealt with Erika, Janine, and Misty (Sunnybeam for days here, Lapras lives but doesn't do much other than waste turns). Finally getting Flamethrower at Lv51 helped it pick up more (and would have helped for Surge), and it proved to be a powerhouse on the team. Blue didn't go too well as Gyarados had the better of it (Solarbeam does not much), but it does have a lot of good matchups against his Pokémon. Entei also dealt with Red (at Lv54-56), using the Speedrun strat of using a Guard Special (which makes his Pikachu use Charm often and if it uses Thunder, Entei lives a non-crit one) and X-Items to then sweep the team. Snorlax and Charizard survived attacks, but they didn't do much (Amnesia for lax, Flinch for zard).IceFlame of GlitchCity said:
When I think about the tier for this thing, D-Rank feels a little bit too low for Entei (and by extension, feels a little bit too low for Raikou, but I digress). I guess the reason why it is low in the first place is because of how much of a pain it is to encounter, let alone get (especially without Master Ball). But I think it might be worth considering moving up to C-Rank as a worst case scenario? I don't know.
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I'm kind of disagreeing here on the stance that I'm not sure it's the best argument to say "it doesn't get STAB, aside from the two best possible options for its STAB, which are available almost immediately".
Those are locked to TMs, though, which is the bigger problem. The good news is the competition for these moves are (almost) non-existent since most Psychic-type mons that cant learn Psychic naturally are likely never used anyway and most Grass-types are laughable at best. I suppose there may have been better ways to word this, though.
Just an observation, not a nom, but Spearow is in both A and S rank at the moment. I'm not sure where it's supposed to be, but I'm assuming it got moved and someone forgot to delete the original placement after copying it over.
I have to disagree with this. Refer to the long post I made about Celebi on the previous page for a more in depth explanation, but I'll summarize my stance on Celebi here.
You get the Solar Beam TM on your way to the E4, and Sunny Day after your assault at the Radio Tower in Goldenrod. Shadow Ball is also given to you once you beat Morty. These three moves alone will help Celebi clear out most of the SS Aqua. Yea, Celebi's catch level is a bit low at 30, but it's perfect for the SS Aqua as the trainers there have mons around that level. Psychic is also immediately available after SS Aqua, so that hardly matters especially when it doesn't need it for the majority of the SS Aqua clear. Don't use Giga Drain.
Sure, these moves are locked to TMs, as you say, but Celebi's probably the only viable mon in the game that can utilize these moves the way it does, and these moves are pretty much available almost, or just about immediately depending on the TM.
You also have to consider that Celebi pretty much solos the rest of the game after SS Aqua. Its matchup vs all of the Gym Leaders, besides Blaine (although Magmar and Magcargo are OHKOd if Celebi's at a high enough level), Blue's Pidgeot and Arcanine, and Red's Charizard, is excellent. Even those bad matchups that I mentioned aren't even that big of a deal if you just use Celebi from the moment you step off of the SS Aqua, which is easily doable thanks to the fact that pretty much all of Kanto's trainers just fall to it. It sounds like hyperbole, but I'm not kidding when I say that the rest of my team became irrelevant the stronger Celebi grew.
I forgot to remove A Spearow. That will change.
I have to agree with Colonel M on Celebi's rank, but for somewhat different reasons. Celebi comes super late, is used during the easiest part of the game (so it's not really that valuable), and requires a significant amount of investment between its level and the TM requirements. C is fair considering that's where the similarly late Snorlax is.
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I'd say that's fair, when put in those words. I was mainly disagreeing with the notion that it could have dropped to D rank.
I'm backing up Vengeance's nomination for Virtual Console Celebi at B-rank.
It's difficult to put into words just how fun and easy it is to use to sweep Kanto singlehandedly. Coming at Level 30 seems like a huge negative when you're going into postgame, but this really doesn't hurt Celebi's performance at all -- at most it means it has to hold off on gym battles for a little bit and/or has to start with Janine. Otherwise it's surprising just how easily the little onion fairy blasts through the game with Shadow Ball/Psychic/Sunny Day-Solarbeam; it was a little troubled at first by the couple of Magmar on the SS Aqua but right after that the ball got rolling and the momentum just never slowed down -- as soon as you pick up the Psychic TM it's set for life, but it's not exactly struggling with the few trainers it has to get through before that either. I was also surprised just how well Solarbeam worked as well; I never found myself missing Giga Drain as despite Sunny Day's low PP it provided enough time to dominate 3/4-member teams. I even found myself using Solarbeam without Sunny Day a lot against certain opponents; Celebi's natural bulk and some of its resistances comes in way too handy to not mention.
It trounces every route and sweeps every gym leader with ease -- I used an X Special at Blaine and Blue each to be safe, but it still manages to easily OHKO almost anything it came across; and the few things it couldn't OHKO it wasn't troubled much by at all. The one exception to that was Red's Charizard who -just- survived a Psychic even after two X specials, but it couldn't land a KO with Flamethrower and so I was quickly able to make short work with it. Red's AI then decides that the best course of action for whatever reason is to send in Espeon instead of Snorlax after Charizard, so you can happily set up a Sunny Day free of Charizard worry to OHKO the rest of his team. I was personally Level 70 by the time I got to him, but I promise you I done no extra grinding beyond the trainers that were just in Kanto anyway, a couple Rare Candies I ran into and a couple of Arbok just to get the last few exp. points for a level because it really annoys me when I see an exp. bar that is two pixels away from completion. For a Legendary the onion fairy levels up extremely fast and is much easier to catch too.
TL;DR -- a Pokémon that requires little to no investment to give out amazing returns and manages to sweep every single trainer post-Lance. The only problem is, of course, that it only comes after Lance so I can't nom it any higher than B in good faith; but I also think it would be a crime to put it any lower than B.
Made the following changes at this time:
* Celebi is tentatively ranked C.
* Furret up to B (was C)
* Raikou and Entei up to C (was D)
* Spearow has been fixed (S)
* Bellsprout (C) up to C (was D) (GS remains D for now)
* Espeon up to B (was C)
Small reasons:
- Celebi is pretty solid mid-game. Might still leave this open for discussion of B, but I think the focal point that needs to be reminded is that Kanto is not terribly long to begin with.
- Furret should have been at least B a long time ago. I'll acknowledge that it's very useful and nice to have earlygame and still does okay transition midgame - especially if that transition is just using HMs. Sharing the same tier at minimum with Rattata is what I was aiming to begin with and sort of just "forgot".
- Its_A_Random covered Entei / Raikou. Was harsher punishment due to its requirements, but honestly C Minimum is a lot better.
- Molk was using Bellsprout (C) and I'll at least confess it's a potential option for Totodile and Cyndaquil starters (would lean it better for Cyndaquil starters usually because Spearow covers Bellsprout and Chikorita from rival). D was kind of cruel. I may raise GS later since early Vine Whip / Growth is okay, but I want to stress that much like Chikorita this Pokemon is kinda not good and shouldn't be used seriously if you don't plan to manipulate for Leaf Stone.
- Espeon B Rank is kind of tentative for now, I figured there were at least some okay arguments for it provided that the investment is a bit different (monetary with some level investment), but I kind of want to stress that this may go back down in the future.
At the moment nothing felt too necessary for a huge drop. I may re-evaluate that later, though.
At the moment I'm heavily considering what to do with S, A, B, and C ranks. As it states there are a lot of weird Pokemon in each rank.
- S I think is the most solid by far, and I feel that there are no real changes that need to be made. Perhaps, at best, an S+ or S- could be considered, but I feel these three Pokemon (at least Spearow and Totodile, at bare minimum) really stand out. The problem is some like Trade Abra have mediocre moments (though it's for a very short time) and some like Magmar (GS) are really fucking good right out of the box (but people want it A, understandably).
A lot of B Rank Pokemon vary. Some like Rattata and Sentret make perfect sense because they're very good earlygame and okay middle game ground to stand on for a while, even if it is a small time. The problem is that including Espeon introduces a new problem - it's a Pokemon that does admittedly have a fairly high cost associated with it (granted with an okay reward) while some Pokemon like Girafarig and Seel aren't really that high of maintenance but have a small backtrack.
That leaves C Rank, which is kind of the dumping ground for "barely usable" Pokemon. Well, I would argue in cases like Chikorita. Some just come late like Raikou, some just don't have a lot going for them like Machoke.
Here's what I'll leave to discussion, for now, to at least stir it:
Still open to other discussion, and will definitely re-comb through lower tiers at a later date, too, to help with finalizing.[/b]
* Celebi is tentatively ranked C.
* Furret up to B (was C)
* Raikou and Entei up to C (was D)
* Spearow has been fixed (S)
* Bellsprout (C) up to C (was D) (GS remains D for now)
* Espeon up to B (was C)
Small reasons:
- Celebi is pretty solid mid-game. Might still leave this open for discussion of B, but I think the focal point that needs to be reminded is that Kanto is not terribly long to begin with.
- Furret should have been at least B a long time ago. I'll acknowledge that it's very useful and nice to have earlygame and still does okay transition midgame - especially if that transition is just using HMs. Sharing the same tier at minimum with Rattata is what I was aiming to begin with and sort of just "forgot".
- Its_A_Random covered Entei / Raikou. Was harsher punishment due to its requirements, but honestly C Minimum is a lot better.
- Molk was using Bellsprout (C) and I'll at least confess it's a potential option for Totodile and Cyndaquil starters (would lean it better for Cyndaquil starters usually because Spearow covers Bellsprout and Chikorita from rival). D was kind of cruel. I may raise GS later since early Vine Whip / Growth is okay, but I want to stress that much like Chikorita this Pokemon is kinda not good and shouldn't be used seriously if you don't plan to manipulate for Leaf Stone.
- Espeon B Rank is kind of tentative for now, I figured there were at least some okay arguments for it provided that the investment is a bit different (monetary with some level investment), but I kind of want to stress that this may go back down in the future.
At the moment nothing felt too necessary for a huge drop. I may re-evaluate that later, though.
At the moment I'm heavily considering what to do with S, A, B, and C ranks. As it states there are a lot of weird Pokemon in each rank.
- S I think is the most solid by far, and I feel that there are no real changes that need to be made. Perhaps, at best, an S+ or S- could be considered, but I feel these three Pokemon (at least Spearow and Totodile, at bare minimum) really stand out. The problem is some like Trade Abra have mediocre moments (though it's for a very short time) and some like Magmar (GS) are really fucking good right out of the box (but people want it A, understandably).
A lot of B Rank Pokemon vary. Some like Rattata and Sentret make perfect sense because they're very good earlygame and okay middle game ground to stand on for a while, even if it is a small time. The problem is that including Espeon introduces a new problem - it's a Pokemon that does admittedly have a fairly high cost associated with it (granted with an okay reward) while some Pokemon like Girafarig and Seel aren't really that high of maintenance but have a small backtrack.
That leaves C Rank, which is kind of the dumping ground for "barely usable" Pokemon. Well, I would argue in cases like Chikorita. Some just come late like Raikou, some just don't have a lot going for them like Machoke.
Here's what I'll leave to discussion, for now, to at least stir it:
- Drowzee to B, see ggfan and atsync's posts a few pages back to gauge on why I think it's not great but B is at least somewhat okay to consider
- Celebi to B, but bear in mind once again that A) Kanto is short, B) Technically there is some costs associated with Celebi (small backtrack, TM distribution (let's not pretend Shadow Ball is at least somewhat cost-worthy), C) how ground-breaking is its impact in its lategame
- Gastly (Trade) to B. I think it's pretty clear that Gastly line is fucking terrible, and at best any Gengar user should catch Haunter, which severely limits its battles and location. Yeah sure, you can do some cheesy shit against some of the earlier trainers with Gastly, but it's not worth it. It might as well be a glorified Abra, in my opinion, since Night Shade is ridiculously late (Level 21).
- Geodude (No Trade) to B. Graveler is at least useful for a good portion of the game, but beyond Radio Tower I would not seriously consider using Graveler for any long-term portion of the game.
Still open to other discussion, and will definitely re-comb through lower tiers at a later date, too, to help with finalizing.[/b]
Gastly (Trade) to B:
The worst aspect of this line is the arduous journey that it has as a Gastly. Lick as a starting move is beyond terrible and offers little to no help in any major battles other than against your rival's own Gastly. Even in trainer battles, I found myself expending nearly 1/3 of Lick's PP in a match, sometimes against a single mon in a desperate attempt to get this Pokemon some more experience than the amount I'd get if I swap-trained alone. Spite and Mean Look don't offer much utility, either. Not sure if this is a commonly-used strat by those who regular this thread, but I had to resort to using the Nightmare TM to get SOME kind of decent damage output with Hypnosis + Nightmare before getting Night Shade
Oh, and while we're talking about the Virtual Console versions, you better know someone else with a copy of G/S/C, or have another 3DS of your own with either Gold or Silver already on it, because if you don't have access to either of those and the other 3DS you have only has RBY, unless you grind in Goldenrod's game corner to acquire the Thunder TM, your Haunter won't have enough Kanto-era moves at level 25 to transfer to RBY to get the trade evolution. Hypnosis, Lick, and Night Shade are the only ones until Confuse Ray at level 31, so you have to endure 6 more levels of terrible grinding with Haunter until then, although to be fair, Night Shade starts to do much better damage by then.
If Entei and Raikou are going up (which I can understand given that they can be manipulated to a degree and the Master Ball can be used to avoid the pain process of catching them through their fleeing mechanics), I think Gold/Silver Suicune should also rise since it's part of that same group.
I am also fine with S-tier as it stands right now, except that I think that untraded Abra should also be in S tier alongside the traded version. I think it is being unfairly tiered simply for being worse than the traded version, whereas I think it deserves to rank higher than pretty much everything that is in A-tier right now.
I have something I want to say about A-tier, and I apologise if this comes across as me derailing Colonel M's intended discussion points about B-tier Drowzee and the rest (I'll post about those too later).
Looking at A-tier right now:
A Tier:
- Abra (No Trade)
- Cyndaquil
- Gastly (Trade)
- Geodude (Trade)
- Geodude (No Trade)
- Ho-oh (G)
- Lugia (S)
- Magikarp
- Magmar (GS)
- Mareep (GS)
- Miltank
- Nidoran F
- Nidoran M
- Psyduck
- Suicune (C)
- Tauros
- Teddiursa (C)
- Wooper
I am not 100% happy with this tier at the moment because at a glance it kinda lumps a bunch of Pokemon together than I don't think deserve to stand alongside one another in terms of tiering, at least based on my experiences with some of them during my various test runs. The problem I'm having though is that I'm at a loss as to how to best resolve this.
Leaving untraded Abra aside for now, there are several Pokemon here that I would be inclined to "drop", but at the same time, I don't know if these Pokemon really fit in well in the current B-tier either. Tauros and Miltank are prime examples of such Pokemon. I have long held the view that they are slightly over-rated - I think that their A-tier placement does not take in to account enough the low encounter rate (sub-10% for both combined), mid-Johto availability, relatively low catch level/rate, and slow experience group. But at the same time, when I look at the current composition of B-tier, I have a hard time justifying dropping them down there since they don't seem to fit well there either. The mascot legends (Ho-Oh (G), Lugia (S) and Suicune (C)) and many of the others are Pokemon I have similar views about.
The following are Pokemon that I feel comfortable having in A-tier right now:
Cyndaquil
Geodude (with trade)
Magmar (GS)
Mareep
Pokemon I would have no issue dropping to B-tier:
Gastly (with trade) (refer to my previous write-up, and the thoughts of Colonel M and others, for reasoning)
Psyduck (I believe that Psyduck should rank alongside other other good mid-Johto Waters [Lapras, Tentacool, etc.] and I think dropping Psyduck down to where the majority of these Pokemon are currently ranked is the best thing to do)
Borderline (for me) A/B Pokemon:
Geodude (no trade)
Ho-oh (G)
Lugia (S)
Magikarp (Red Gyarados - I'm assuming this is what is being represented here?)
Miltank
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Suicune (C)
Tauros
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper
These are all of my current borderline A-tier Pokemon that I'm personally uncertain/not convinced should be A-tier, but that I also have a hard time justifying in B-tier. Of course, I recognise that the definition of "A-tier", or any tier for that matter, is highly subjective. Some of my feelings come from testing things which I have touched upon in my previous write-ups, and in some cases (mainly the mascot legends) it's mostly from subjective feelings about tiering philosophy.
If I'm alone in thinking this way then that's fine. But I do wonder if there needs to be a new tier inserted between A and B or similar, because I feel like a lot of these "borderline" Pokemon would be right at home in such a tier. At the very least I would feel a bit better about how these Pokemon are placed since it gets them out of A-tier but at the same time it doesn't feel like they are being under-rated in B-tier.
Colonel M I believe you expressed that there will be no sub-ranks for this tier list earlier in the thread. Are you in any way open to the idea of adding or merging tiers, or are you completely set on the current S-A-B-C-D-E arrangement?
I am also fine with S-tier as it stands right now, except that I think that untraded Abra should also be in S tier alongside the traded version. I think it is being unfairly tiered simply for being worse than the traded version, whereas I think it deserves to rank higher than pretty much everything that is in A-tier right now.
I have something I want to say about A-tier, and I apologise if this comes across as me derailing Colonel M's intended discussion points about B-tier Drowzee and the rest (I'll post about those too later).
Looking at A-tier right now:
A Tier:
- Abra (No Trade)
- Cyndaquil
- Gastly (Trade)
- Geodude (Trade)
- Geodude (No Trade)
- Ho-oh (G)
- Lugia (S)
- Magikarp
- Magmar (GS)
- Mareep (GS)
- Miltank
- Nidoran F
- Nidoran M
- Psyduck
- Suicune (C)
- Tauros
- Teddiursa (C)
- Wooper
I am not 100% happy with this tier at the moment because at a glance it kinda lumps a bunch of Pokemon together than I don't think deserve to stand alongside one another in terms of tiering, at least based on my experiences with some of them during my various test runs. The problem I'm having though is that I'm at a loss as to how to best resolve this.
Leaving untraded Abra aside for now, there are several Pokemon here that I would be inclined to "drop", but at the same time, I don't know if these Pokemon really fit in well in the current B-tier either. Tauros and Miltank are prime examples of such Pokemon. I have long held the view that they are slightly over-rated - I think that their A-tier placement does not take in to account enough the low encounter rate (sub-10% for both combined), mid-Johto availability, relatively low catch level/rate, and slow experience group. But at the same time, when I look at the current composition of B-tier, I have a hard time justifying dropping them down there since they don't seem to fit well there either. The mascot legends (Ho-Oh (G), Lugia (S) and Suicune (C)) and many of the others are Pokemon I have similar views about.
The following are Pokemon that I feel comfortable having in A-tier right now:
Cyndaquil
Geodude (with trade)
Magmar (GS)
Mareep
Pokemon I would have no issue dropping to B-tier:
Gastly (with trade) (refer to my previous write-up, and the thoughts of Colonel M and others, for reasoning)
Psyduck (I believe that Psyduck should rank alongside other other good mid-Johto Waters [Lapras, Tentacool, etc.] and I think dropping Psyduck down to where the majority of these Pokemon are currently ranked is the best thing to do)
Borderline (for me) A/B Pokemon:
Geodude (no trade)
Ho-oh (G)
Lugia (S)
Magikarp (Red Gyarados - I'm assuming this is what is being represented here?)
Miltank
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Suicune (C)
Tauros
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper
These are all of my current borderline A-tier Pokemon that I'm personally uncertain/not convinced should be A-tier, but that I also have a hard time justifying in B-tier. Of course, I recognise that the definition of "A-tier", or any tier for that matter, is highly subjective. Some of my feelings come from testing things which I have touched upon in my previous write-ups, and in some cases (mainly the mascot legends) it's mostly from subjective feelings about tiering philosophy.
If I'm alone in thinking this way then that's fine. But I do wonder if there needs to be a new tier inserted between A and B or similar, because I feel like a lot of these "borderline" Pokemon would be right at home in such a tier. At the very least I would feel a bit better about how these Pokemon are placed since it gets them out of A-tier but at the same time it doesn't feel like they are being under-rated in B-tier.
Colonel M I believe you expressed that there will be no sub-ranks for this tier list earlier in the thread. Are you in any way open to the idea of adding or merging tiers, or are you completely set on the current S-A-B-C-D-E arrangement?
What's up guys, me talking about my experiences playing through VC Crystal on discord are what got Bellsprout (C) moved up. Since i know a lot of people who weren't on discord at the time might be curious as to why it moved up, i thought it'd be a fun idea to make a comprehensive post describing my experience using the Bellsprout line in Crystal here! Read below for both a play by play and my personal opinions.
If you don't want to read the massive wall of text above, i decided to make a list of notable good and bad matchups (imo). As well as notable moves the Bellsprout line learns that you might want during your playthrough. Any matchup not listed is somewhat neutral imo.
Notable good matchups (trainers): Chuck, Bruno, Lt. Surge, Misty(don't underestimate Starmie), Erika, Brock, Cal
Notable good matchups (specific Pokemon): Silver's starter Pokemon (assuming you picked Totodile, presumably a good matchup if you picked Cyndaquil as well), Sudowoodo, Red Gyarados, Ariana's Gloom/Vileplume, Suicune, Clair's Kingdra (arguable, almost definitely better if you evolve Weepinbell beforehand, i didn't) Will's Exeggutor, Will's Slowbro, Karen's Umbreon, Karen's Vileplume, Lance's Gyarados (watch out for Hyper Beam), Snorlax, Blue's Exeggutor, Blue's Rhydon, Red's Pikachu, Red's Venusaur.
Notable bad matchups: Falkner, Morty, Poison-types(Team Rocket, Koga, and Janine, could potentially be fixed to an extent by teaching it Return) Sabrina, Blaine (if it can outspeed either of their Pokemon it can potentially do a lot of damage, but in the case that it can't they're both pretty bad in my opinion).
Notable moves:
Level Up: Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Vine Whip, Acid, Razor Leaf
TM/HM: Sludge Bomb (highly recommended), Sunny Day, SolarBeam, Return (can theoretically be used to improve matchups with Poison-type trainers), Cut (can be used early game for normal-type coverage and out of battle use but i didn't want to be stuck with Cut until Blackthorn so i didn't use it), Giga Drain.
Overall, i think Bellsprout (C) is easily the best Grass-type in the game, and i think it was almost definitely underrated when it was placed in D rank. It's available extremely early at a decent level, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore are great and allow it to be very useful when it comes to catching both stationary Pokemon and new team members, and can even allow it to be useful in "bad" matchups due to its ability to inflict status conditions on key members of the opponent's team. Weepinbell's decentish speed and high offenses allow it to pull its weight through most of Johto without even being fully evolved, especially after Sludge Bomb is obtained, and if you really want it to be fully evolved as quickly as possible, you can have a Victreebel on your hands before beating Whitney. Doing the latter prevents access to Razor Leaf, but if you're willing to use TMs on it, you can still have a solid moveset on it before challenging the Elite Four. The Bellsprout line also flat out excels during certain points of the game, notably on the route to Cianwood (including Chuck's gym battle) and a large amount of Kanto. As for flaws, i'd say it's really reliant on Sludge Bomb to perform to its full potential through your playthrough, which can be an issue if you want it for another Pokemon on your team. Return is also a highly contested move if it ends up being useful against Poison-type trainers like i predict it would. On top of that, if you evolve it early, it's reliant on either being taught Sunny Day+SolarBeam or Giga Drain if you want a Grass-type move stronger than Vine Whip. Getting your hands of a Leaf Stone could also potentially take a while considering you need to wait for Picnicker Gina to call you, although with DST manipulation you can get one more quickly (personally i just lucked out). Honestly, considering the fact that Weepinbell pulled its weight throughout most of Johto without being fully evolved for me, i wouldn't be completely against Bellsprout (GS) being moved up as well, but i can see it lagging behind a bit against the Elite Four since the Leaf Stone isn't obtainable until Kanto in GS.
Lastly, there are a few things that i think are worth testing that i didn't do during my personal playthrough. If anyone decides to use a Bellsprout in their playthrough, feel free to try any of these and post your results.
1) how does teaching Bellsprout (C) Return early on affect its matchups? does it improve the matchups against Team Rocket, Koga, and Janine as much as i think it might?
2) how does evolving Bellsprout (C) as early as possible affect its performance ingame. Personally, Weepinbell did fine through all of Johto for me, does evolving it into a Victreebel make a big difference?
3) How much of a difference does not evolving before Kanto make for Bellsprout (GS)? Personally, i found Weepinbell perfectly sufficient throughout Johto, but i can see it lagging a bit at the Pokemon league without access to a Leaf Stone.
So, to start things off, i booted up Crystal on the VC for the first time, and decided to pick Totodile, i wanted to have a relatively fresh run and wanted to use Pokemon that i haven't used in an ingame playthrough for the most part, and i decided that my first teammate was going to be Bellsprout! Not only because i wanted a fresh new experience, but because i saw it was D rank when checking this thread for a general idea of what's good ingame and after a bit of theorycrafting it didn't really make sense to me, i decided i might as well test it out myself to see if my theorycraft could be put into practice.
I caught Bellsprout at route 31, at level 5. This is the first thing that really makes me think of Bellsprout (C) as the best non starter Grass-type in the game, availability. Bellsprout is easily obtainable early on in the game, before you reach Violet City even, and it has both a high encounter rate (20%) and catch rate (255) to boot! Catching it should be no problem at all. To level Bellsprout up and get things going, i simply went to dark cave and trained against the geodude in there for a few minutes, i started off training it on route 31 since i overestimated zubat's encounter rate in dark cave, but after realizing geodude was far more common, i simply switched spots and kept training from there. Even with that little hiccup, getting Bellsprout to level 11 (both the level of my Totodile at the time without any real grinding and the level it learns wrap by level up) only took about 20 minutes.
Once Bellsprout learned wrap, i decided that it'd be a good idea to use it against the sages in the sprout tower, considering it 4x resists its own vine whip and outlevels pretty much every other Bellsprout there, it seemed like a pretty good idea to me, especially because Totodile doesn't exactly have the best matchup against them itself (i had the level advantage, but i wanted to play it safe due to being uncertain on how consistently i could KO the opposing Bellsprout before they could get a Vine Whip in). Bellsprout ended up soloing the entire sprout tower on its own (none of the Hoothoot have any flying-type moves, i didn't really have anything to fear honestly) and i got flash for future use. Totodile handled Falkner on its own, it didn't seem like a good idea to throw Bellsprout against a Pidgeotto with Gust.
After finishing up in Violet City, i made sure to pick up the Miracle Seed on the way out, i was well aware it'd take a while for Bellsprout to learn a Grass-Type move stronger than Vine Whip and thought that picking up the seed and having Bellsprout hold it would help out a bit. Bellsprout was fairly useful as i went through Route 32 and Union Cave. I was aware that my starter could handle most of the Rock and Ground types encountered around this point such as Geodude, Onix, and Wooper, but i just wanted to test Bellsprout out and see what it could do.
Bellsprout wasn't particularly useful during the Team Rocket encounter in Slowpoke Well, but it was surprisingly solid when it came to the other activities around the area. It took out Silver's Bayleef for me, it took a while, but it was never in any real danger due to the 4x resistance it had to Razor Leaf. By this point, Bellsprout had hit level 15 and learned Sleep Powder, one of the other big positives the Bellsprout line has. Sleep Powder's an excellent move ingame for both catching new team members and crippling opposing Pokemon so you can take them down. Being able to put a key opponent to sleep means that the Bellsprout line can still potentially be useful, even in "bad" matchups vs important trainers. I had my starter (i'm pretty sure Totodile evolved somewhere around this point, but not 100% sure when) take out all the gym trainers in Azalea gym, and took a look at Bugsy's team. I noticed that Bugsy's Scyther didn't really have anything that was *too* threatening to Bellsprout, and that his Metapod/Kakuna were absolute setup bait, so i decided to do the unthinkable and tried to solo Bugsy with Bellsprout. To my surprise, i actually managed to do it easily! The combination of Sleep Powder and Metapod's low damage output let me set up to +6 against it quite easily. Sleep Powder allowed Bellsprout to put Scyther to sleep before it could use Fury Cutter too many times in a row, stopping Scyther from doing *severe* damage to Bellsprout easily. Eventually repeated +6 Vine Whips and residual damage from Wrap did Scyther in, and Bellsprout won the Hive Badge on its own!
On the route to Goldenrod, Bellsprout both learned Stun Spore (useful for similar reasons to Sleep Powder) and evolved into Weepinbell! Notably, Weepinbell's offensive stats are higher than Meganium's, meaning that even when it's unevolved, it can put in quite a bit of damage. On route 34, i made sure to get Picnicker Gina's number so i could get a Leaf Stone to evolve Weepinbell into Victreebel later. I'm aware of the exploits to get the stones from Pokegear calls more easily, but i wanted to do this run completely glitch/exploit free, and i was lucky enough to have Gina call me with a Leaf Stone when i left the game on without paying attention to it for 10 minutes, so yeah. I decided to battle all the trainers in the area surrounding Goldenrod just to get some extra experience before facing Whitney, along the way, Weepinbell learned Acid.
Alright, so once Weepinbell learned Acid, i could've evolved it right then and there and i probably would've been fine, but i thought things over a bit and decided that i wanted to wait a while before evolving Weepinbell for two reasons. The first was that i wanted to wait until Weepinbell learned Razor Leaf before evolving it, which is pretty late, but still more than attainable pre-kanto without any significant grinding or anything, and the second was that i simply wanted to see how well Weepinbell would perform throughout the game without evolving it. Theoretically even if you evolved Weepinbell right here and now, it'd be possible to get a decent moveset on it before the pokemon league, but i'll get to that later.
Onto Whitney, Croconaw took out Clefairy quite easily, and when met with Miltank, i decided that my gameplan would be to use Weepinbell to paralyze Miltank, both to slow it down and for the chance for full paralysis to stop Miltank during Rollout, resetting its power. I had to use an Oddish i caught in Ilex Forest as death fodder because of some bad luck with Attract, but Weepinbell managed to both paralyze Miltank, and with a bit of luck, defeat it.
Weepinbell really shined on the way to Ecruteak, simply because Sleep Powder made catching Sudowoodo (who i had planned out as the third member of my team at this point) that much easier. Once i got to Ecruteak, i got Surf from the Kimono Girls and went into the burnt tower to activate the event for the legendary beasts. Once again, just like before, Weepinbell did a very good job of shutting down Silver's Bayleef during the match. After the beasts started roaming, i made my way to Route 38 and caught a Miltank for my team. From there, i fought the trainers on the way to both Olivine and Mahogany to level it up so it was on par with the rest of my team. Afterwards, i went and fought Morty, Croconaw really did most of the work throughout the gym, although Weepinbell paralyzed Gengar, making it easier to take down, by the time the gym battle was over Croconaw evolved into Feraligatr.
OK, so now, something really important. If you're using the Bellsprout line on your ingame team, i'd highly recommend doing the events at Mahogany town before *anything* else after beating Morty. Why? After you drive all the Team Rocket members out of Mahogany, you can get the TM for Sludge Bomb. Giving Weepinbell Sludge Bomb makes it an absolute monster for pretty much the rest of the game, and i'd highly suggest obtaining it as early as possible. After adding a Drowzee i caught early game onto my team, I arrived at Mahogany town and caught the Red Gyarados to get the event rolling (once again, Weepinbell made catching Gyarados pretty painless with Sleep Powder). I didn't really use Weepinbell much against Team Rocket due to type matchups and me wanting to raise Drowzee up (in hindsight, getting the Return TM at Goldenrod might've made Weepinbell a bit more useful vs the Poison-types that Team Rocket has, might be worth getting if any of you guys want to give it a shot), but once all of that was finished, i was able to get the TM for Sludge Bomb and teach it to Weepinbell immediately.
Afterwards, i went to Cianwood city so i could get Chuck's badge and get the SecretPotion for Amphy (made sure to go to the lighthouse beforehand to activate the secretpotion event and to get some levels on my team, especially since my new Drowzee still needed some TLC). Weepinbell absolutely destroyed routes 40 and 41, even the Tentacool on the route that resisted the move ended up getting OHKOed by it. From what i remember, only a handful of Pokemon on the route were able to survive a Sludge Bomb at all, and i didn't use a single Pokemon other than Weepinbell on the way there. Once i got to Cianwood, i picked up the SecretPotion, i fought Eusine. One notable part of the fight was that Weepinbell managed to 2HKO Eusine's Haunter with Sludge Bomb, even though a 4x resistance! Haunter might be frail, but it just goes to show how strong having STAB Sludge Bomb is at this point of the game. Chuck's gym was absolutely free, i just mashed Sludge Bomb and only got hit once or twice through the entire thing. By the time i was done in Cianwood, Weepinbell was pretty overleveled compared to the rest of my team, so i didn't really use it as much until they caught up.
I decided to challenge Jasmine and Pryce out of order, considering the fact that Pryce's Pokemon are actually lower leveled than Jasmine's, i decided to challenge Pryce and his gym first. As previously mentioned, i didn't really use Weepinbell too much through this stage of the game because it started to get a bit overleveled compared to the rest of my team. However, if i were to theorycraft, i'd imagine that Weepinbell would be able to do ok against Pryce's gym as long as it could outspeed its opponents, it wouldn't appreciate taking any Ice-type moves, but Sludge Bomb is just so strong that it'd most likely 2HKO anything that doesn't resist it at worst. Against Jasmine, i'd imagine that Weepinbell would be able to do ok against her Magnemite, and could outspeed and put Steelix to sleep, although taking out the two Magnemite would take a while due to their resistance to Vine Whip and immunity to Sludge Bomb.
Just like against Pryce and Jasmine, i didn't really use Weepinbell very much against Team Rocket during the Radio Tower takeover due both to the matchups against the grunts and wanting to level up the rest of my team more (although as mentioned before, a lot of these matchups could be improved in theory if you use the Return TM on Weepinbell/Victreebel, especially considering the immunity to being poisoned the Bellsprout line has). However, it does well against any members of the Oddish family the members of Team Rocket have (including Ariana's Vileplume!) , as well as Silver's Meganium if you picked Totodile (it should do fine against Silver's Feraligatr if you picked Cyndaquil too, the same should apply to any earlier battles with him, it just kinda slipped my mind to mention it). By the time i defeated Archer, the rest of my team was up to par again in terms of levels, so i started using Weepinbell more again. From what i remember it did a pretty good job of clearing out Route 44 as well as Ice Path due to the strength of Sludge Bomb, and i used it pretty much exclusively on the way to Blackthorn. I know i could've gone to Ecruteak and caught Suicune at this point, but i wanted to have access to easy Ultra Balls beforehand, so i decided that going to Blackthorn first so i could buy them.
After reaching Blackthorn, i beat all the trainers on routes 45 and 46 and finally captured the final member of my team, a Skarmory. Once again, Weepinbell's Sleep Powder was extremely helpful for catching new Pokemon, although catching Skarmory was a pain regardless due to its low catch rate. After getting finished with that, i went ahead and challenged Clair's gym. I mainly used Feraligatr's Ice Punch to get through all the gym trainers and Clair's three Dragonair, but i used Weepinbell against her Kingdra. I had to use a Hyper Potion or two due to some bad luck with Smokescreen, but i was able to take out Clair's Kingdra with Weepinbell. Weepinbell's resistance to Surf and STAB Sludge Bomb really came in handy, despite Weepinbell's low defenses, it was still able to stomach Kingdra's Hyper Beam as well.
Once i finished defeating Clair and cleared the Dragon's Den, i went back to Ecruteak to catch Suicune. Weepinbell worked wonders with its resistance to BubbleBeam and access to Sleep Powder, and i was able to catch it relatively quickly. After catching Suicune, i went straight to New Bark Town and started making my way to the league. Weepinbell did well on the way to the league, and ended up learning Razor Leaf along the way. Right after learning Razor Leaf, i immediately used my Leaf Stone on it to evolve it into Victreebel. Now, just going to make a note here, if you didn't wait to evolve Weepinbell into Victreebel like i did and just evolved it straight away, i'd say that picking up the TM for SolarBeam on Route 27 is a good idea. The TMs for both Sunny Day and SolarBeam are available in Johto (if you don't have the Sunny Day TM, you can get it by returning to the Radio Tower after driving Team Rocket out of there and talking to a woman on 3F), and If you teach Victreebel both moves alongside Sludge Bomb, you should basically be set as far as moves go for the rest of your playthrough. Victreebel came in handy against Silver's Meganium (Feraligatr if you picked Cyndaquil, idk why you'd use both Bel and Chikorita on the same team), and it can also potentially do well against his Sneasel and Magneton in my opinion due to the lack of a solid STAB move from the former and its resistance to the latter's Electric-type moves.
Once i had leveled up all of my Pokemon to the low to mid 40s, i stocked up on items and challenged the Pokemon League. Below i'll list exactly what Victreebel did against all of the members of the Elite Four as well as Lance, overall, i'd say it pulled its weight throughout the league.
Will: Victreebel knocked out Will's Exeggutor and Slowbro pretty easily, i crit Slowbro with Razor Leaf and i'm not 100% sure if it's a OHKO otherwise. However, you can outspeed it and put it to sleep easily regardless.
Koga: Victreebel basically sat this one out. Just like against Team Rocket, i imagine it could be a bit more useful against him if you teach it Return, but even then, it's not going to do much against his Forretress.
Bruno: In a similar case to Chuck, Victreebel soloed Bruno on its own pretty easily.
Karen: Victreebel was able to take out Karen's Umbreon and Vileplume for me from what i remember, didn't bother using it against any of her other Pokemon although it could probably take out Murkrow too due to its lack of a Flying-type move and general frailty.
Lance: Victreebel started out the match by taking out Lance's Gyarados iirc, most of the rest of Lance's team was cleaned up by Feraligatr.
Alright, so onto Kanto. I'm going to compress everything in Kanto quite a bit compared to how i described Johto, considering all of the routes and route trainers should be easy to handle for your team as this point. The matchups against the gym leaders, gym trainers, Snorlax, Red, and arguably Cal (completely optional but he gives you a LOT of exp and money for beating him, i'd suggest fighting him as much as you can, especially when grinding for Red, he's stronger than pretty much every non Gym Leader trainer too, so having a good matchup against him is important if you want the extra goodies imo.) are what i'm going to mainly focus on.
Once i got off of the S.S aqua, i fought Lt. Surge pretty much immediately, Victreebel pretty much destroyed the entire gym by itself, Lt. Surge included, the only thing i'd really worry about is Electrode's Double Team, but it's really more of a slight annoyance than anything else. After defeating Lt. Surge, i headed up to Saffron City and challenged Sabrina. I didn't really bother using Victreebel against anyone in the gym, especially not Sabrina. If Victreebel was able to outspeed any of her Pokemon it could definitely do a lot of damage, but that wasn't a risk that i wanted to take. After beating Sabrina, i went north to Cerulean and solved the issues at the power plant as quickly as possible, interrupted Misty's date, and challenged her ASAP. As you might expect, most of the gym was a cakewalk for Victreebel, although her Starmie was slightly more annoying than expected due to its combination of speed, Confuse Ray, and Ice Beam. After beating Misty, i went through the Rock Tunnel to Lavender Town and picked up the EXPN Card so i could wake up Snorlax later, then headed west to Celadon City. Victreebel ran through the Celadon City gym on its own, i didn't really need to do anything except click Sludge Bomb to take out the entire gym honestly. After being defeated, Erika gives you the TM for Giga Drain, which is an option for Victreebel if you want it, personally, i didn't use it despite the increase in base power from Razor Leaf and the healing effect because i wanted to keep the PP that Razor Leaf has. Once Erika was defeated, i headed down Cycling Road to Fuschia City and challenged Janine's gym. Like the other Poison-type heavy areas of the game such as the Team Rocket arcs and Koga's battle, Victreebel didn't see a lot of action during this gym battle, although if you teach Victreebel Return, it should do fine against her, especially considering the relatively low levels of her Pokemon compared to the rest of the gym leaders in the region.
Afterwards, i traveled up to Silence Bridge and battled the Snorlax blocking Diglett's cave. Just like literally every other stationary Pokemon i've encountered so far, Victreebel was extremely useful against Snorlax simply because of Sleep Powder, which made it that much easier to catch. I traveled through Diglett's Cave to Pewter and challenged Brock. Victreebel absolutely ran through the Pewter City gym with no trouble at all, especially considering Brock's entire team has a 4x weakness to Razor Leaf. From there i traveled to Mt. Moon so i could challenge Silver yet another time. Just like the Victory Road battle, Victreebel is useful against Silver's Sneasel, starter (if you picked Totodile or Cyndaquil) and potentially Magneton. From there i battled all the trainers on the route to Cerulean, then backtracked back to Pewter and headed down to Viridian. While i was there i stopped briefly to challenge Cal in the Trainer House, just for the extra experience and money. Victreebel handled Cal's Feraligatr and Meganium handily, while Typh was basically Feraligatr fodder. Leaving Viridian City, i passed through Pallet Town and Cinnabar Island, talked to Blue, and challenged Blaine at the Seafoam Islands. Victreebel wasn't sent out against Blaine due to the fact that all i needed to do was click Surf 3 times to defeat him, although using Victreebel against him probably isn't an amazing idea regardless (although Sludge Bomb should still leave a dent). Once Blaine was defeated, i battled my way back up to Fuschia and went back to Viridian City to challenge Blue. Victreebel was able to take out Blue's Rhydon and Exeggutor quite easily, and can do alright against Gyarados too in theory.
After defeating Blue, i took the time to level up my Pokemon a bit by repeatedly rematching the Elite Four before battling Red. I got my team all the way up to the mid 50s/lower 60s and traveled through Mt. Silver to challenge Red. Despite being obviously underleveled, i was able to beat Red on the first try. Victreebel was able to take out Red's Pikachu pretty easily, and completely walled his Venusaur despite having an extreme level disadvantage against both.
Overall, Victreebel excelled in Kanto, it had a good matchup againt half of the gym leaders, made catching Snorlax way easier, and played an important role against both Red and Blue.
I caught Bellsprout at route 31, at level 5. This is the first thing that really makes me think of Bellsprout (C) as the best non starter Grass-type in the game, availability. Bellsprout is easily obtainable early on in the game, before you reach Violet City even, and it has both a high encounter rate (20%) and catch rate (255) to boot! Catching it should be no problem at all. To level Bellsprout up and get things going, i simply went to dark cave and trained against the geodude in there for a few minutes, i started off training it on route 31 since i overestimated zubat's encounter rate in dark cave, but after realizing geodude was far more common, i simply switched spots and kept training from there. Even with that little hiccup, getting Bellsprout to level 11 (both the level of my Totodile at the time without any real grinding and the level it learns wrap by level up) only took about 20 minutes.
Once Bellsprout learned wrap, i decided that it'd be a good idea to use it against the sages in the sprout tower, considering it 4x resists its own vine whip and outlevels pretty much every other Bellsprout there, it seemed like a pretty good idea to me, especially because Totodile doesn't exactly have the best matchup against them itself (i had the level advantage, but i wanted to play it safe due to being uncertain on how consistently i could KO the opposing Bellsprout before they could get a Vine Whip in). Bellsprout ended up soloing the entire sprout tower on its own (none of the Hoothoot have any flying-type moves, i didn't really have anything to fear honestly) and i got flash for future use. Totodile handled Falkner on its own, it didn't seem like a good idea to throw Bellsprout against a Pidgeotto with Gust.
After finishing up in Violet City, i made sure to pick up the Miracle Seed on the way out, i was well aware it'd take a while for Bellsprout to learn a Grass-Type move stronger than Vine Whip and thought that picking up the seed and having Bellsprout hold it would help out a bit. Bellsprout was fairly useful as i went through Route 32 and Union Cave. I was aware that my starter could handle most of the Rock and Ground types encountered around this point such as Geodude, Onix, and Wooper, but i just wanted to test Bellsprout out and see what it could do.
Bellsprout wasn't particularly useful during the Team Rocket encounter in Slowpoke Well, but it was surprisingly solid when it came to the other activities around the area. It took out Silver's Bayleef for me, it took a while, but it was never in any real danger due to the 4x resistance it had to Razor Leaf. By this point, Bellsprout had hit level 15 and learned Sleep Powder, one of the other big positives the Bellsprout line has. Sleep Powder's an excellent move ingame for both catching new team members and crippling opposing Pokemon so you can take them down. Being able to put a key opponent to sleep means that the Bellsprout line can still potentially be useful, even in "bad" matchups vs important trainers. I had my starter (i'm pretty sure Totodile evolved somewhere around this point, but not 100% sure when) take out all the gym trainers in Azalea gym, and took a look at Bugsy's team. I noticed that Bugsy's Scyther didn't really have anything that was *too* threatening to Bellsprout, and that his Metapod/Kakuna were absolute setup bait, so i decided to do the unthinkable and tried to solo Bugsy with Bellsprout. To my surprise, i actually managed to do it easily! The combination of Sleep Powder and Metapod's low damage output let me set up to +6 against it quite easily. Sleep Powder allowed Bellsprout to put Scyther to sleep before it could use Fury Cutter too many times in a row, stopping Scyther from doing *severe* damage to Bellsprout easily. Eventually repeated +6 Vine Whips and residual damage from Wrap did Scyther in, and Bellsprout won the Hive Badge on its own!
On the route to Goldenrod, Bellsprout both learned Stun Spore (useful for similar reasons to Sleep Powder) and evolved into Weepinbell! Notably, Weepinbell's offensive stats are higher than Meganium's, meaning that even when it's unevolved, it can put in quite a bit of damage. On route 34, i made sure to get Picnicker Gina's number so i could get a Leaf Stone to evolve Weepinbell into Victreebel later. I'm aware of the exploits to get the stones from Pokegear calls more easily, but i wanted to do this run completely glitch/exploit free, and i was lucky enough to have Gina call me with a Leaf Stone when i left the game on without paying attention to it for 10 minutes, so yeah. I decided to battle all the trainers in the area surrounding Goldenrod just to get some extra experience before facing Whitney, along the way, Weepinbell learned Acid.
Alright, so once Weepinbell learned Acid, i could've evolved it right then and there and i probably would've been fine, but i thought things over a bit and decided that i wanted to wait a while before evolving Weepinbell for two reasons. The first was that i wanted to wait until Weepinbell learned Razor Leaf before evolving it, which is pretty late, but still more than attainable pre-kanto without any significant grinding or anything, and the second was that i simply wanted to see how well Weepinbell would perform throughout the game without evolving it. Theoretically even if you evolved Weepinbell right here and now, it'd be possible to get a decent moveset on it before the pokemon league, but i'll get to that later.
Onto Whitney, Croconaw took out Clefairy quite easily, and when met with Miltank, i decided that my gameplan would be to use Weepinbell to paralyze Miltank, both to slow it down and for the chance for full paralysis to stop Miltank during Rollout, resetting its power. I had to use an Oddish i caught in Ilex Forest as death fodder because of some bad luck with Attract, but Weepinbell managed to both paralyze Miltank, and with a bit of luck, defeat it.
Weepinbell really shined on the way to Ecruteak, simply because Sleep Powder made catching Sudowoodo (who i had planned out as the third member of my team at this point) that much easier. Once i got to Ecruteak, i got Surf from the Kimono Girls and went into the burnt tower to activate the event for the legendary beasts. Once again, just like before, Weepinbell did a very good job of shutting down Silver's Bayleef during the match. After the beasts started roaming, i made my way to Route 38 and caught a Miltank for my team. From there, i fought the trainers on the way to both Olivine and Mahogany to level it up so it was on par with the rest of my team. Afterwards, i went and fought Morty, Croconaw really did most of the work throughout the gym, although Weepinbell paralyzed Gengar, making it easier to take down, by the time the gym battle was over Croconaw evolved into Feraligatr.
OK, so now, something really important. If you're using the Bellsprout line on your ingame team, i'd highly recommend doing the events at Mahogany town before *anything* else after beating Morty. Why? After you drive all the Team Rocket members out of Mahogany, you can get the TM for Sludge Bomb. Giving Weepinbell Sludge Bomb makes it an absolute monster for pretty much the rest of the game, and i'd highly suggest obtaining it as early as possible. After adding a Drowzee i caught early game onto my team, I arrived at Mahogany town and caught the Red Gyarados to get the event rolling (once again, Weepinbell made catching Gyarados pretty painless with Sleep Powder). I didn't really use Weepinbell much against Team Rocket due to type matchups and me wanting to raise Drowzee up (in hindsight, getting the Return TM at Goldenrod might've made Weepinbell a bit more useful vs the Poison-types that Team Rocket has, might be worth getting if any of you guys want to give it a shot), but once all of that was finished, i was able to get the TM for Sludge Bomb and teach it to Weepinbell immediately.
Afterwards, i went to Cianwood city so i could get Chuck's badge and get the SecretPotion for Amphy (made sure to go to the lighthouse beforehand to activate the secretpotion event and to get some levels on my team, especially since my new Drowzee still needed some TLC). Weepinbell absolutely destroyed routes 40 and 41, even the Tentacool on the route that resisted the move ended up getting OHKOed by it. From what i remember, only a handful of Pokemon on the route were able to survive a Sludge Bomb at all, and i didn't use a single Pokemon other than Weepinbell on the way there. Once i got to Cianwood, i picked up the SecretPotion, i fought Eusine. One notable part of the fight was that Weepinbell managed to 2HKO Eusine's Haunter with Sludge Bomb, even though a 4x resistance! Haunter might be frail, but it just goes to show how strong having STAB Sludge Bomb is at this point of the game. Chuck's gym was absolutely free, i just mashed Sludge Bomb and only got hit once or twice through the entire thing. By the time i was done in Cianwood, Weepinbell was pretty overleveled compared to the rest of my team, so i didn't really use it as much until they caught up.
I decided to challenge Jasmine and Pryce out of order, considering the fact that Pryce's Pokemon are actually lower leveled than Jasmine's, i decided to challenge Pryce and his gym first. As previously mentioned, i didn't really use Weepinbell too much through this stage of the game because it started to get a bit overleveled compared to the rest of my team. However, if i were to theorycraft, i'd imagine that Weepinbell would be able to do ok against Pryce's gym as long as it could outspeed its opponents, it wouldn't appreciate taking any Ice-type moves, but Sludge Bomb is just so strong that it'd most likely 2HKO anything that doesn't resist it at worst. Against Jasmine, i'd imagine that Weepinbell would be able to do ok against her Magnemite, and could outspeed and put Steelix to sleep, although taking out the two Magnemite would take a while due to their resistance to Vine Whip and immunity to Sludge Bomb.
Just like against Pryce and Jasmine, i didn't really use Weepinbell very much against Team Rocket during the Radio Tower takeover due both to the matchups against the grunts and wanting to level up the rest of my team more (although as mentioned before, a lot of these matchups could be improved in theory if you use the Return TM on Weepinbell/Victreebel, especially considering the immunity to being poisoned the Bellsprout line has). However, it does well against any members of the Oddish family the members of Team Rocket have (including Ariana's Vileplume!) , as well as Silver's Meganium if you picked Totodile (it should do fine against Silver's Feraligatr if you picked Cyndaquil too, the same should apply to any earlier battles with him, it just kinda slipped my mind to mention it). By the time i defeated Archer, the rest of my team was up to par again in terms of levels, so i started using Weepinbell more again. From what i remember it did a pretty good job of clearing out Route 44 as well as Ice Path due to the strength of Sludge Bomb, and i used it pretty much exclusively on the way to Blackthorn. I know i could've gone to Ecruteak and caught Suicune at this point, but i wanted to have access to easy Ultra Balls beforehand, so i decided that going to Blackthorn first so i could buy them.
After reaching Blackthorn, i beat all the trainers on routes 45 and 46 and finally captured the final member of my team, a Skarmory. Once again, Weepinbell's Sleep Powder was extremely helpful for catching new Pokemon, although catching Skarmory was a pain regardless due to its low catch rate. After getting finished with that, i went ahead and challenged Clair's gym. I mainly used Feraligatr's Ice Punch to get through all the gym trainers and Clair's three Dragonair, but i used Weepinbell against her Kingdra. I had to use a Hyper Potion or two due to some bad luck with Smokescreen, but i was able to take out Clair's Kingdra with Weepinbell. Weepinbell's resistance to Surf and STAB Sludge Bomb really came in handy, despite Weepinbell's low defenses, it was still able to stomach Kingdra's Hyper Beam as well.
Once i finished defeating Clair and cleared the Dragon's Den, i went back to Ecruteak to catch Suicune. Weepinbell worked wonders with its resistance to BubbleBeam and access to Sleep Powder, and i was able to catch it relatively quickly. After catching Suicune, i went straight to New Bark Town and started making my way to the league. Weepinbell did well on the way to the league, and ended up learning Razor Leaf along the way. Right after learning Razor Leaf, i immediately used my Leaf Stone on it to evolve it into Victreebel. Now, just going to make a note here, if you didn't wait to evolve Weepinbell into Victreebel like i did and just evolved it straight away, i'd say that picking up the TM for SolarBeam on Route 27 is a good idea. The TMs for both Sunny Day and SolarBeam are available in Johto (if you don't have the Sunny Day TM, you can get it by returning to the Radio Tower after driving Team Rocket out of there and talking to a woman on 3F), and If you teach Victreebel both moves alongside Sludge Bomb, you should basically be set as far as moves go for the rest of your playthrough. Victreebel came in handy against Silver's Meganium (Feraligatr if you picked Cyndaquil, idk why you'd use both Bel and Chikorita on the same team), and it can also potentially do well against his Sneasel and Magneton in my opinion due to the lack of a solid STAB move from the former and its resistance to the latter's Electric-type moves.
Once i had leveled up all of my Pokemon to the low to mid 40s, i stocked up on items and challenged the Pokemon League. Below i'll list exactly what Victreebel did against all of the members of the Elite Four as well as Lance, overall, i'd say it pulled its weight throughout the league.
Will: Victreebel knocked out Will's Exeggutor and Slowbro pretty easily, i crit Slowbro with Razor Leaf and i'm not 100% sure if it's a OHKO otherwise. However, you can outspeed it and put it to sleep easily regardless.
Koga: Victreebel basically sat this one out. Just like against Team Rocket, i imagine it could be a bit more useful against him if you teach it Return, but even then, it's not going to do much against his Forretress.
Bruno: In a similar case to Chuck, Victreebel soloed Bruno on its own pretty easily.
Karen: Victreebel was able to take out Karen's Umbreon and Vileplume for me from what i remember, didn't bother using it against any of her other Pokemon although it could probably take out Murkrow too due to its lack of a Flying-type move and general frailty.
Lance: Victreebel started out the match by taking out Lance's Gyarados iirc, most of the rest of Lance's team was cleaned up by Feraligatr.
Alright, so onto Kanto. I'm going to compress everything in Kanto quite a bit compared to how i described Johto, considering all of the routes and route trainers should be easy to handle for your team as this point. The matchups against the gym leaders, gym trainers, Snorlax, Red, and arguably Cal (completely optional but he gives you a LOT of exp and money for beating him, i'd suggest fighting him as much as you can, especially when grinding for Red, he's stronger than pretty much every non Gym Leader trainer too, so having a good matchup against him is important if you want the extra goodies imo.) are what i'm going to mainly focus on.
Once i got off of the S.S aqua, i fought Lt. Surge pretty much immediately, Victreebel pretty much destroyed the entire gym by itself, Lt. Surge included, the only thing i'd really worry about is Electrode's Double Team, but it's really more of a slight annoyance than anything else. After defeating Lt. Surge, i headed up to Saffron City and challenged Sabrina. I didn't really bother using Victreebel against anyone in the gym, especially not Sabrina. If Victreebel was able to outspeed any of her Pokemon it could definitely do a lot of damage, but that wasn't a risk that i wanted to take. After beating Sabrina, i went north to Cerulean and solved the issues at the power plant as quickly as possible, interrupted Misty's date, and challenged her ASAP. As you might expect, most of the gym was a cakewalk for Victreebel, although her Starmie was slightly more annoying than expected due to its combination of speed, Confuse Ray, and Ice Beam. After beating Misty, i went through the Rock Tunnel to Lavender Town and picked up the EXPN Card so i could wake up Snorlax later, then headed west to Celadon City. Victreebel ran through the Celadon City gym on its own, i didn't really need to do anything except click Sludge Bomb to take out the entire gym honestly. After being defeated, Erika gives you the TM for Giga Drain, which is an option for Victreebel if you want it, personally, i didn't use it despite the increase in base power from Razor Leaf and the healing effect because i wanted to keep the PP that Razor Leaf has. Once Erika was defeated, i headed down Cycling Road to Fuschia City and challenged Janine's gym. Like the other Poison-type heavy areas of the game such as the Team Rocket arcs and Koga's battle, Victreebel didn't see a lot of action during this gym battle, although if you teach Victreebel Return, it should do fine against her, especially considering the relatively low levels of her Pokemon compared to the rest of the gym leaders in the region.
Afterwards, i traveled up to Silence Bridge and battled the Snorlax blocking Diglett's cave. Just like literally every other stationary Pokemon i've encountered so far, Victreebel was extremely useful against Snorlax simply because of Sleep Powder, which made it that much easier to catch. I traveled through Diglett's Cave to Pewter and challenged Brock. Victreebel absolutely ran through the Pewter City gym with no trouble at all, especially considering Brock's entire team has a 4x weakness to Razor Leaf. From there i traveled to Mt. Moon so i could challenge Silver yet another time. Just like the Victory Road battle, Victreebel is useful against Silver's Sneasel, starter (if you picked Totodile or Cyndaquil) and potentially Magneton. From there i battled all the trainers on the route to Cerulean, then backtracked back to Pewter and headed down to Viridian. While i was there i stopped briefly to challenge Cal in the Trainer House, just for the extra experience and money. Victreebel handled Cal's Feraligatr and Meganium handily, while Typh was basically Feraligatr fodder. Leaving Viridian City, i passed through Pallet Town and Cinnabar Island, talked to Blue, and challenged Blaine at the Seafoam Islands. Victreebel wasn't sent out against Blaine due to the fact that all i needed to do was click Surf 3 times to defeat him, although using Victreebel against him probably isn't an amazing idea regardless (although Sludge Bomb should still leave a dent). Once Blaine was defeated, i battled my way back up to Fuschia and went back to Viridian City to challenge Blue. Victreebel was able to take out Blue's Rhydon and Exeggutor quite easily, and can do alright against Gyarados too in theory.
After defeating Blue, i took the time to level up my Pokemon a bit by repeatedly rematching the Elite Four before battling Red. I got my team all the way up to the mid 50s/lower 60s and traveled through Mt. Silver to challenge Red. Despite being obviously underleveled, i was able to beat Red on the first try. Victreebel was able to take out Red's Pikachu pretty easily, and completely walled his Venusaur despite having an extreme level disadvantage against both.
Overall, Victreebel excelled in Kanto, it had a good matchup againt half of the gym leaders, made catching Snorlax way easier, and played an important role against both Red and Blue.
If you don't want to read the massive wall of text above, i decided to make a list of notable good and bad matchups (imo). As well as notable moves the Bellsprout line learns that you might want during your playthrough. Any matchup not listed is somewhat neutral imo.
Notable good matchups (trainers): Chuck, Bruno, Lt. Surge, Misty(don't underestimate Starmie), Erika, Brock, Cal
Notable good matchups (specific Pokemon): Silver's starter Pokemon (assuming you picked Totodile, presumably a good matchup if you picked Cyndaquil as well), Sudowoodo, Red Gyarados, Ariana's Gloom/Vileplume, Suicune, Clair's Kingdra (arguable, almost definitely better if you evolve Weepinbell beforehand, i didn't) Will's Exeggutor, Will's Slowbro, Karen's Umbreon, Karen's Vileplume, Lance's Gyarados (watch out for Hyper Beam), Snorlax, Blue's Exeggutor, Blue's Rhydon, Red's Pikachu, Red's Venusaur.
Notable bad matchups: Falkner, Morty, Poison-types(Team Rocket, Koga, and Janine, could potentially be fixed to an extent by teaching it Return) Sabrina, Blaine (if it can outspeed either of their Pokemon it can potentially do a lot of damage, but in the case that it can't they're both pretty bad in my opinion).
Notable moves:
Level Up: Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Vine Whip, Acid, Razor Leaf
TM/HM: Sludge Bomb (highly recommended), Sunny Day, SolarBeam, Return (can theoretically be used to improve matchups with Poison-type trainers), Cut (can be used early game for normal-type coverage and out of battle use but i didn't want to be stuck with Cut until Blackthorn so i didn't use it), Giga Drain.
Overall, i think Bellsprout (C) is easily the best Grass-type in the game, and i think it was almost definitely underrated when it was placed in D rank. It's available extremely early at a decent level, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore are great and allow it to be very useful when it comes to catching both stationary Pokemon and new team members, and can even allow it to be useful in "bad" matchups due to its ability to inflict status conditions on key members of the opponent's team. Weepinbell's decentish speed and high offenses allow it to pull its weight through most of Johto without even being fully evolved, especially after Sludge Bomb is obtained, and if you really want it to be fully evolved as quickly as possible, you can have a Victreebel on your hands before beating Whitney. Doing the latter prevents access to Razor Leaf, but if you're willing to use TMs on it, you can still have a solid moveset on it before challenging the Elite Four. The Bellsprout line also flat out excels during certain points of the game, notably on the route to Cianwood (including Chuck's gym battle) and a large amount of Kanto. As for flaws, i'd say it's really reliant on Sludge Bomb to perform to its full potential through your playthrough, which can be an issue if you want it for another Pokemon on your team. Return is also a highly contested move if it ends up being useful against Poison-type trainers like i predict it would. On top of that, if you evolve it early, it's reliant on either being taught Sunny Day+SolarBeam or Giga Drain if you want a Grass-type move stronger than Vine Whip. Getting your hands of a Leaf Stone could also potentially take a while considering you need to wait for Picnicker Gina to call you, although with DST manipulation you can get one more quickly (personally i just lucked out). Honestly, considering the fact that Weepinbell pulled its weight throughout most of Johto without being fully evolved for me, i wouldn't be completely against Bellsprout (GS) being moved up as well, but i can see it lagging behind a bit against the Elite Four since the Leaf Stone isn't obtainable until Kanto in GS.
Lastly, there are a few things that i think are worth testing that i didn't do during my personal playthrough. If anyone decides to use a Bellsprout in their playthrough, feel free to try any of these and post your results.
1) how does teaching Bellsprout (C) Return early on affect its matchups? does it improve the matchups against Team Rocket, Koga, and Janine as much as i think it might?
2) how does evolving Bellsprout (C) as early as possible affect its performance ingame. Personally, Weepinbell did fine through all of Johto for me, does evolving it into a Victreebel make a big difference?
3) How much of a difference does not evolving before Kanto make for Bellsprout (GS)? Personally, i found Weepinbell perfectly sufficient throughout Johto, but i can see it lagging a bit at the Pokemon league without access to a Leaf Stone.
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I'm currently playing through Silver again and decided to try and build a team of the best ingame monsters just for fun.
I do want this to be a glitchless run so no cloning of TMs, balls or monsters.
What would be the best ingame Pokémon to complete this team?
Feraligatr @ Mystic Water
- Surf
- Ice Punch
- Headbutt
- Bite
I'll teach this Earthquake once I reach the TM and Return once I reach next Sunday.
Alakazam @ Charcoal / Never-Melt Ice / Magnet
- Psybeam
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
Once it learns Psychic, I'll replace Psybeam. The item depends on matchups.
Fearow @ Pink Bow
- Return
- Peck
- Pursuit
- Leer
This is HABSI aka KENYA the gift Spearow. I've never used it before and I'm curious to see whether it deserves S rank or not.
Fly, Drill Peck and Steel Wing will replace the terrible moves once I reach them.
Two slots are reserved for Bellsprout and Psyduck HM slaves that I won't be using for battling (Cut, Flash, Whirlpool, Rock Smash, Waterfall and Strength).
I do want this to be a glitchless run so no cloning of TMs, balls or monsters.
What would be the best ingame Pokémon to complete this team?
Feraligatr @ Mystic Water
- Surf
- Ice Punch
- Headbutt
- Bite
I'll teach this Earthquake once I reach the TM and Return once I reach next Sunday.
Alakazam @ Charcoal / Never-Melt Ice / Magnet
- Psybeam
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
Once it learns Psychic, I'll replace Psybeam. The item depends on matchups.
Fearow @ Pink Bow
- Return
- Peck
- Pursuit
- Leer
This is HABSI aka KENYA the gift Spearow. I've never used it before and I'm curious to see whether it deserves S rank or not.
Fly, Drill Peck and Steel Wing will replace the terrible moves once I reach them.
Two slots are reserved for Bellsprout and Psyduck HM slaves that I won't be using for battling (Cut, Flash, Whirlpool, Rock Smash, Waterfall and Strength).
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I finished my playthrough last week. Everything I used in Johto has already been discussed (like Growlithe) or its ranking is clear (like Feraligatr, Lapras and Skarmory). However, I decided to change up my team once I beat the Elite Four, and I wanted to see how Kanto would be if I tried to solo it with Celebi and the Larvitar that you can buy from the game corner (which comes at level 40). Celebi was exactly how the previous posts nominating it for B described. It ran into very few obstacles in Kanto, and it could easily solo almost everything with a moveset of Solarbeam/Sunny Day/Psychic/Shadow Ball. It felt similar to using Snorlax in Kanto. It may not come at as high of a level, but it levels up quickly and it makes short work of most of the route trainers and nearly every gym.
Larvitar was more interesting. It costs a bit of money, but it's not too difficult to buy it if you plan ahead, since it's so far in the game and you already have the amulet coin. Plus, you can immediately evolve it into Pupitar. It comes already knowing Thrash and Rock Slide, and I also taught it Earthquake. It actually did really well. It could cover everything that gave Celebi trouble (like Blaine). I had saved some rare candies, so it evolved midway through Kanto. Unsurprisingly, Tyranitar has no trouble once it evolves. Between it and Celebi, I didn't have too much trouble with Red despite being 20 levels below his team.
If we don't want to separate the ranking of Larvitar between GS and C, then I could understand it being in E. It's not incredible in Crystal by any means, and Kanto is already pretty easy as a whole. But I could see it moving to D rank, and it's nice to be able to use it before getting to Mt. Silver.
Larvitar was more interesting. It costs a bit of money, but it's not too difficult to buy it if you plan ahead, since it's so far in the game and you already have the amulet coin. Plus, you can immediately evolve it into Pupitar. It comes already knowing Thrash and Rock Slide, and I also taught it Earthquake. It actually did really well. It could cover everything that gave Celebi trouble (like Blaine). I had saved some rare candies, so it evolved midway through Kanto. Unsurprisingly, Tyranitar has no trouble once it evolves. Between it and Celebi, I didn't have too much trouble with Red despite being 20 levels below his team.
If we don't want to separate the ranking of Larvitar between GS and C, then I could understand it being in E. It's not incredible in Crystal by any means, and Kanto is already pretty easy as a whole. But I could see it moving to D rank, and it's nice to be able to use it before getting to Mt. Silver.
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I want to talk about Umbreon. He is planted in C but that seems to be only because it has received zero discussion since this thread's inception. This is a Pokemon I really wanted to be good, but deep down I knew it would be awful. Now I know we aren't supposed to compare a Pokemon's performance to another's but this an Eeveelution, a Pokemon you receive once and completely eliminate the option to use another Pokemon, namely Espeon. Simply put, Umbreon is a time sink with almost no payoff. In order to use Umbreon as some sort of half baked sponge while you heal your team up, you have to make Eevee your baby and favor it above anything else on your team. Luckily you get Bite "early" and are immune to Shadow Ball so it sort of has a niche against Morty, and you also don't have to bellyache over not getting that magic level 36 move since Faint Attack is about as good as Bite. The fun, if you can call it that, ends there. Eevee (or Umbreon!) can't do anything to Chuck or Jasmine, and it's nothing special against Pryce, whose Pokemon are rather fat and not powerful enough on their own right to warrant tanking. I'd rather just use a powerful teammate to take out Pryce. I tried Umbreon against Karen but it ended up on the receiving end of Dragonair's Dragonbreath hax and Dragon Rage that it didn't even get to fight against Kingdra - not that it could do anything back to it. I'm just so disgusted at how much precious time i wasted on this thing that I can never get back, and its lack of performance against the gym leaders it can face or even team rocket (I haven't even gotten to e4 yet). Its one stab is just so weak and it gets no coverage (Shadow Ball doesn't count lol). The bulk is worth nothing when you can't do damage back. Oh yeah, and it's slow as hell so that nifty flinch chance means nothing. Umbreon deserves E rank. The only thing That might push it to D imo is its ability to take some hits while you potion up against the E4, and that's only speculation on my part since I'm not going to level it up any further. Is it worth dealing with happiness evolution and squandering time better spent raising your team, progressing through the game, or having any sort of fun at all while playing a children's game? Not really.
Edit: Thanks Kurona, that makes sense.
Edit: Thanks Kurona, that makes sense.
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I generally agree with the rest of your post - hence why I'm not responding to it; it seems pretty accurate imo - but I just wanted to respond to this particular part because it's an issue I raised on the policy thread. When it comes down to a Pokémon for which using it sacrifices using another Pokémon - Starters, Fossils, FRLG Hitmons, and of course in this case Eeveelutions - we do not take into account this sort of opportunity cost. We assume the player has complete intention of using the Pokémon in question - in this case Umbreon - and for whom losing the ability to use the others does not matter and does not come into the equation. So maaaaaybe something to mention in an analysis in case it isn't obvious, but not something to actively work against a Pokémon's rank.
Gotcha. Sadly enough, in Umbreon's case, "not getting to use Espeon" (or any of the other Eeveelutions) is the least of its faults. Not getting to use the rest of your team is the real opportunity cost, so I wouldn't even mention it in an analysis. Probably shouldn't mention it in any other analyses since it is obvious for all those other cases too; but alas, it's a policy issue i don't feel like touching with a ten foot pole because the only time I get to go on Smogon is on my phone during a train ride and it's easier to be alert and avoid getting murdered in south LA.
Assuming I'm calcing it right, an Umbreon's Bite/Faint Attack actually does less damage than an Eevee's Headbutt, and that's without taking badge boosts into account. Yikes.
Having said that, Umbreon might be worthy of D-tier just because Eevee is somewhat usable prior to evolving and is obtained at a good level in relation to your current teams likely average level. Umbreon also has decent match-ups against Will and Sabrina is that's worth anything (it completely walls Slowbro, Mr. Mime and Alakazam - it does the same with Blue's Alakazam and it doesn't seem like it'll have trouble with Red's Espeon either, especially with Faint Attack to ignore Mud-Slap accuracy drops).
The problems I had with Bellsprout mostly stemmed from its poor move pool. It takes too long to get Razor Leaf and its options prior to Sludge Bomb are very limited. It is true that Bellsprout received some improvements in Crystal (Leaf Stone in Johto, increased catch level on Route 31) but its move pool problems are not addressed by having it evolve earlier beyond making Vine Whip and Acid less shitty with its higher attacking stats. But with that said, perhaps evolving Weepinbell immediately is worth it considering that SunnyBeam becomes available at the same time and possibly earlier than Razor Leaf as you say, and Giga Drain comes early in Kanto anyway (i.e. even if you delay evolution, there is little opportunity to use Razor Leaf before its other decent Grass options come along). On paper, I'm not convinced evolving immediately is enough to improve its tier beyond C but I haven't tried it myself so I can't answer your second question with any certainty.
(Note: I didn't use Return on mine either)
As far as Bellsprout's placement on the list is concerned, I originally agreed with its spot in D tier when I tested it in GS, but given that Chikorita is in C and is inferior to Bellsprout in some respects (lower attacking stats, lack of Sleep Powder) whilst being better in others (superior early-game move pool), it seems appropriate to have Bellsprout in C tier regardless of version.
Having said that, Umbreon might be worthy of D-tier just because Eevee is somewhat usable prior to evolving and is obtained at a good level in relation to your current teams likely average level. Umbreon also has decent match-ups against Will and Sabrina is that's worth anything (it completely walls Slowbro, Mr. Mime and Alakazam - it does the same with Blue's Alakazam and it doesn't seem like it'll have trouble with Red's Espeon either, especially with Faint Attack to ignore Mud-Slap accuracy drops).
In my experience with Espeon, level 30 is still too high to be considered reasonable at that point in the game, and without Bite, Eevee is useless for Morty (EDIT: well perhaps not useless if it has Mud-Slap). I suppose there are a lot of trainers on the Routes heading to Lake of Rage and Olivine City that can be battled before Surf is available in the field though, so maybe that could help.
I haven't used Bellsprout in C, but in GS, I also found Weepinbell to be "fine" in Johto, and to be perfectly honest it is still somewhat useful against the Elite 4 because it'll still counter or lose to a lot of the same stuff as Victreebel would - it just might need to turn to Sleep Powder more frequently against stuff like Bruno's Fighting-types, for example.
The problems I had with Bellsprout mostly stemmed from its poor move pool. It takes too long to get Razor Leaf and its options prior to Sludge Bomb are very limited. It is true that Bellsprout received some improvements in Crystal (Leaf Stone in Johto, increased catch level on Route 31) but its move pool problems are not addressed by having it evolve earlier beyond making Vine Whip and Acid less shitty with its higher attacking stats. But with that said, perhaps evolving Weepinbell immediately is worth it considering that SunnyBeam becomes available at the same time and possibly earlier than Razor Leaf as you say, and Giga Drain comes early in Kanto anyway (i.e. even if you delay evolution, there is little opportunity to use Razor Leaf before its other decent Grass options come along). On paper, I'm not convinced evolving immediately is enough to improve its tier beyond C but I haven't tried it myself so I can't answer your second question with any certainty.
(Note: I didn't use Return on mine either)
As far as Bellsprout's placement on the list is concerned, I originally agreed with its spot in D tier when I tested it in GS, but given that Chikorita is in C and is inferior to Bellsprout in some respects (lower attacking stats, lack of Sleep Powder) whilst being better in others (superior early-game move pool), it seems appropriate to have Bellsprout in C tier regardless of version.
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I think Umbreon is probably better with in D Ranks.
So I'll probably post something else within here and the Tiering Philosophy soon, but I think I'm going to do a severe breakdown on tiers and probably will look for some of the best to discuss. I know Mekkah and many others used to do tiering philosophy, but I think since then they're off doing other things (though obviously am cool if they want to suggest and discuss tier list policy).
I think there is a solution to atsync's concern:
Open a bit more on the viability of S Rank
We could open the floodgates to be a bit more accomodating with tiering some Pokemon in S. Some mons are like so close to solid and their arguments against them being S is like "but they aren't Abra / Totodile / Spearow good". On the same token, though, these Pokemon are above and beyond quite a few of these Pokemon as well. Take Cyndaquil for example - I actually could debate this Pokemon to B tier, honestly, and not a significantly better Pokemon than, say, Growlithe in Crystal. Ember is pretty mediocre after mons like Totodile and co are learning Surf, and there's not a lot of coverage options that Cyndaquil can go through. There's Fire Blast, which I admit isn't bad, but with low PP, a chance to miss, and needing to dump a lot of resources to obtaining it there's some awkwardness with calling it (almost 100%) A Tier.
On the contrary, we don't really rank Pokemon based on their difficulty to catch. The only real reason that I ranked Entei and Raikou that low is the practicality of catching it at a reasonable time is after you obtain the Master Ball. We base the Pokemon AFTER the Pokemon is caught, which is partly why I raised Entei and Raikou up a rank as well. I probably wouldn't even severely object to placing them in B either. This would be why I disagree with Tauros drop based on that alone.
I also decided to read some of the stuff in here, and I will say that I am holding off on this right now, but very likely will rise:
- Celebi to B
This definitely will rise to C sometime soon since I definitely agree with atsync and Molk that Bellsprout is a gajillion times better than Chikorita:
- Bellsprout (GS)
Furthermore I will probably be scanning through tiers individually throughout the next couple of days and evaluate if the Pokemon realistically should rise or drop, be separated from tiering (i.e. GSC mon being separated as GS and C). This is also why I think Growlithe will remain C, at least for now, because I think it is high time to sit and re-evaluate the tiers a bit more closely and what exactly qualifies the Pokemon (within reason) within the tier and why. I also feel I may add an F Tier since some Pokemon really do deserve to be here based on absolute shit availability or having absolutely little-to-no niche whatsoever.
That will be all for now, I apologize for those waiting for tier changes and the like, but I really need to sit and consider a lot first before doing so.
So I'll probably post something else within here and the Tiering Philosophy soon, but I think I'm going to do a severe breakdown on tiers and probably will look for some of the best to discuss. I know Mekkah and many others used to do tiering philosophy, but I think since then they're off doing other things (though obviously am cool if they want to suggest and discuss tier list policy).
I think there is a solution to atsync's concern:
Open a bit more on the viability of S Rank
We could open the floodgates to be a bit more accomodating with tiering some Pokemon in S. Some mons are like so close to solid and their arguments against them being S is like "but they aren't Abra / Totodile / Spearow good". On the same token, though, these Pokemon are above and beyond quite a few of these Pokemon as well. Take Cyndaquil for example - I actually could debate this Pokemon to B tier, honestly, and not a significantly better Pokemon than, say, Growlithe in Crystal. Ember is pretty mediocre after mons like Totodile and co are learning Surf, and there's not a lot of coverage options that Cyndaquil can go through. There's Fire Blast, which I admit isn't bad, but with low PP, a chance to miss, and needing to dump a lot of resources to obtaining it there's some awkwardness with calling it (almost 100%) A Tier.
On the contrary, we don't really rank Pokemon based on their difficulty to catch. The only real reason that I ranked Entei and Raikou that low is the practicality of catching it at a reasonable time is after you obtain the Master Ball. We base the Pokemon AFTER the Pokemon is caught, which is partly why I raised Entei and Raikou up a rank as well. I probably wouldn't even severely object to placing them in B either. This would be why I disagree with Tauros drop based on that alone.
I also decided to read some of the stuff in here, and I will say that I am holding off on this right now, but very likely will rise:
- Celebi to B
This definitely will rise to C sometime soon since I definitely agree with atsync and Molk that Bellsprout is a gajillion times better than Chikorita:
- Bellsprout (GS)
Furthermore I will probably be scanning through tiers individually throughout the next couple of days and evaluate if the Pokemon realistically should rise or drop, be separated from tiering (i.e. GSC mon being separated as GS and C). This is also why I think Growlithe will remain C, at least for now, because I think it is high time to sit and re-evaluate the tiers a bit more closely and what exactly qualifies the Pokemon (within reason) within the tier and why. I also feel I may add an F Tier since some Pokemon really do deserve to be here based on absolute shit availability or having absolutely little-to-no niche whatsoever.
That will be all for now, I apologize for those waiting for tier changes and the like, but I really need to sit and consider a lot first before doing so.
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- Status