Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Heatranator]

I mean you also have counters like Zamazenta, or Bulk Up Great Tusk which hard counter any and all Gambit sets. You also straight up cannot sweep if they keep an Ogerpon in the back and you're 5 fainted, or any Encore mon in general (which includes Val).

Bulk up tusk definitely is good against gambit, though it doesn't boost as much as gambit much, which is why I listed Zama as a unique counter. Encore mons definitely do screw it over a lot, but struggle does a lot funnily enough.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Struggle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 202-238 (69.6 - 82%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Probably not going to happen, but it is funny.

Also, not a response to you, but to another post, but adamant gambit is absolutely something you need to account for, there is a reason why it is one of the two gambit sets used. You may be outsped by corv/skarm, but in return you have so much power and bulk.

 

[RaikouLover]

Trust me, it was not bait. He complains about everything in the tier, from tera, to gliscor, to Garg, to Zama, to ghold. Except for roaring moon for some reason.

Yes! Save Gen 9! Unite against Tera!

Gliscor and Garganacl are cancerous. The tier is better off without them. Zama is a clown and people are catching on. Gholdengo is a useful mon with an unhealthy ability (it should not be able to block Defog). We can blame Gamefreak for Gholdengo.. after we evict it from the tier.

Only way to save this tier is to make moves. All the mons that perpetuate toxicity and extreme matchupiness (Volc I’m looking at you too) should be dealt with.

 

[Heatranator]

Yes! Save Gen 9! Unite against Tera!

Gliscor and Garganacl are cancerous. The tier is better off without them. Zama is a clown and people are catching on. Gholdengo is a useful mon with an unhealthy ability. We can blame Gamefreak for Gholdengo.. after we evict it from the tier.

Only way to save this tier is to make moves. All the mons that perpetuate toxicity and extreme matchupiness (Volc I’m looking at you too) should be dealt with.

Okay, genuine question, but do you find anything enjoyable about the tier? Like, you complain more than verlisfy does about Wolfey, which is impressive. I'm just wondering if you hate the tier as much as you seem to do, why are you playing the tier? Not even as a diss, just a genuine question.

 

[littensalt]

anywho i know im late to the discussion but my more serious thoughts is that zama, while being a REALLY good mon at times, like any setup sweeper is matchup based, run any of the 4 fully evolved unaware mons and as long as it only runs 2 attacks you have a good chance, and if you TRULY hate zama then run dozo or clod in which on the most offensive set(4 attacks + ) still handles the 2 badly

[252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 138-163 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 121-144 (24 - 28.5%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO]
(all of this is factoring the idea that neither mon just recovers on you or sets up curse)

overall though, zama defintiely has checks and i think its good for the tier even if i personally might be biased cuz im weird and like using roar zama just to mess up volc and PRAY i get a physical attacker so i can set up an ID then body press spam, gimmicky?yeah a bit, but don't beat it till you try it

Many, we need many. Especially offensive teams, which can run tusk and valiant, but zama is better against gambit even if it tera's since it can id up alongside the sd boosts. So yeah, it's probably the best gambit counter in the game rn. Tera'ing gambit otherwise is extremely difficult for offensive teams to beat, with tusk taking massive damage from it.

going to say once again blunders example of gambit, ghold and zama being a rock paper scissors core will always be relevant, basically restating but yeah, zama is simply gambits best check, by far not its only but when teras involved you simply just iron defense as opposed to losing to tera fly + sucker punch with tusk

 

[cromatkastar]

the conversation about the tera bans and how the banners all left does leave a question about the future of the current metagame bans though.

it reminds me of the boomer game "mafia" where the werewolves are the minority and the villagers are in the majority, and each day everyone votes on someone to kill off. importantly, the win condition of the werewolves is when the werewolves equal the villagers because then the werewolves can just always team up and vote for a villager each day, meaning themselves will never get killed while eliminating all other villagers each night

the suspect process currently for this generation does remind me of this. tera barely survived, and now the anti tera crowd (villagers) have largely left the metagame. only the pro tera crowd (the werewolves in this case) remain, and so no matter how centralizing or bad tera becomes, it will be incredibly hard to ban it since the werewolves are the majority left.

with each passing suspect that ends with a non ban, it is similar right? kingambit remaining unbanned knocks off a couple more villagers, ensuring kyurem's ban doesn't pass because the werewolves make up a bigger majority (HO crowd), which knocks off a couple more villagers, ensuring the next HO unit doesn't get banned, causing a cascading effect. anything thats not HO, suddenly then have a very easy route of getting banned (archulodon) and the cycle continues.

is this currently whats happening? is this a problem? how do we ever fix this problem? people who leave the gen doesn't easily come back without a big change, and big changes can't happen because the remaining werewolves want to ensure the status quo.

 

[RainWaiv]

Many, we need many. Especially offensive teams, which can run tusk and valiant, but zama is better against gambit even if it tera's since it can id up alongside the sd boosts. So yeah, it's probably the best gambit counter in the game rn. Tera'ing gambit otherwise is extremely difficult for offensive teams to beat, with tusk taking massive damage from it.
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 244-288 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Conversly, with zamazenta:
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 170-200 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So yeah, I do think zama is needed.

+2 252+ Atk Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 324-384 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2 is the lowest SO boost you need for it to be an ohko
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 390-458 (100.5 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. +3 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 290-344 (74.7 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
still gets chunked pretty hard.
I know this is more of an argument against the matchup button but tera is always going to be a factor you need to prep for. In order for zam to win here he would need to reasonably 1. guess their tera type 2. assume that gambit was running tera blast which isn't super common anymore and 3. be willing to commit a full tera steel in this situation (which means it could later lose to something like valiant)
The whole meta is full of guessing games and until your opponent has spent their tera there is no such thing as a 100% or even 90% counter. Counters become checks and checks become setup fodder.
I could reasonably say zam MIGHT be on the banworthy side if tera didn't exist/was banned.
Also fuck it. Gambit is fun as hell to play with. Mind games are really, REALLY fun especially if you're good at it.

 

[Heatranator]

the conversation about the tera bans and how the banners all left does leave a question about the future of the current metagame bans though.



it reminds me of the boomer game "mafia" where the werewolves are the minority and the villagers are in the majority, and each day everyone votes on someone to kill off. importantly, the win condition of the werewolves is when the werewolves equal the villagers because then the werewolves can just always team up and vote for a villager each day, meaning themselves will never get killed while eliminating all other villagers each night



the suspect process currently for this generation does remind me of this. tera barely survived, and now the anti tera crowd (villagers) have largely left the metagame. only the pro tera crowd (the werewolves in this case) remain, and so no matter how centralizing or bad tera becomes, it will be incredibly hard to ban it since the werewolves are the majority left.



with each passing suspect that ends with a non ban, it is similar right? kingambit remaining unbanned knocks off a couple more villagers, ensuring kyurem's ban doesn't pass because the werewolves make up a bigger majority (HO crowd), which knocks off a couple more villagers, ensuring the next HO unit doesn't get banned, causing a cascading effect. anything thats not HO, suddenly then have a very easy route of getting banned (archulodon) and the cycle continues.



is this currently whats happening? is this a problem? how do we ever fix this problem? people who leave the gen doesn't easily come back without a big change, and big changes can't happen because the remaining werewolves want to ensure the status quo.

What? I mean, cool analogy, but people most likely will stay in the generation even if they disagree with the decisions made. I disagreed with the decisions to keep kyurem and gouging fire but I still stayed. There is also a large variety of players in the tier, from stall to balance to BO to HO, so I don't think that saying HO is dictating the votes is wrong. Sure, do kyurem and gouging do better against HO, yes, but that was not the reason why they were not banned. People apparently found ways around them, and it made them easier to deal with. Kyurem and Gouging was looking like it would be banned when the suspect went up, but people's opinions change.

There isn't any 'villagers' or 'werewolves', that's a 'us vs them' thinking, which isn't productive. People's opinions are dynamic and are very varied, with individuals thinking completely differently on topics even if they agree with other individuals on specific topics.

 

[weirdo faye]

anywho i know im late to the discussion but my more serious thoughts is that zama, while being a REALLY good mon at times, like any setup sweeper is matchup based, run any of the 4 fully evolved unaware mons and as long as it only runs 2 attacks you have a good chance, and if you TRULY hate zama then run dozo or clod in which on the most offensive set(4 attacks + ) still handles the 2 badly

[252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 138-163 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 121-144 (24 - 28.5%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO]
(all of this is factoring the idea that neither mon just recovers on you or sets up curse)

overall though, zama defintiely has checks and i think its good for the tier even if i personally might be biased cuz im weird and like using roar zama just to mess up volc and PRAY i get a physical attacker so i can set up an ID then body press spam, gimmicky?yeah a bit, but don't beat it till you try it



going to say once again blunders example of gambit, ghold and zama being a rock paper scissors core will always be relevant, basically restating but yeah, zama is simply gambits best check, by far not its only but when teras involved you simply just iron defense as opposed to losing to tera fly + sucker punch with tusk

It is common knowledge when u play id zamazenta u find teammates that can patchup its weaknesses like dondozo clodsire and those are not hard to find while also having a very good mu vs opposing offense. Dragapult and gholdengo too. If ur id zamazenta team lose to stall or fat balance u just built it wrong period, zamazenta just too good and fast vs too many offensive pokemon i don't like it around

 

[RainWaiv]

There isn't any 'villagers' or 'werewolves', that's a 'us vs them' thinking, which isn't productive. People's opinions are dynamic and are very varied, with individuals thinking completely differently on topics even if they agree with other individuals on specific topics.

This is true especially with the recent ST's. Most of them have gone along the lines of people saying something is broken, then people learn how to counter them with already widespread mons, and it ends DNB like what happened with kyurem and gouging. Pretty much the opposite happened with Arch, where people started by saying it was balanced, then people considered rain and that the only reliable check was clod (who got pieced by eq anyways) (still my goat) and then got banned.

 

[Heatranator]

It is common knowledge when u play id zamazenta u find teammates that can patchup its weaknesses like dondozo clodsire and those are not hard to find while also having a very good mu vs opposing offense. Dragapult and gholdengo too. If ur id zamazenta team lose to stall or fat balance u just built it wrong period, zamazenta just too good and fast vs too many offensive pokemon i don't like it around

That's for like every mon. Zama struggles more into stall because dondozo and gliscor (despite it commonly running ice fang) counter it quite hard. Zama is weak to status and has somewhat exploitable special defense, so any fast special attacker can beat it. It also somewhat struggle with ghost types as while it has crunch, ghold can hit it hard in return which is great for offense, while dragapult can t-wave it and cripple it immensely. It also has somewhat of 4mss, as it wants bp, Id, crunch, heavy slam, roar, wild charge, stone edge and ice fang, which all do crucial things.
Zama is immensely powerful against offense, but it isn't unbeatable. Special attackers and status cripple it immensely and it's a good presence that can help with offensive mons.

 

[Heatranator]

Okay, this glowking set has been carrying my games recently.
Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
- Snarl
While you do lose the ability to pivot, you do gain the ability to counter so many mons. Waterpon? Tera water and that sucker is going down if it has any chip. Specs Kyurem? Earth power doesn't even 2hit ko and freeze dry is only a 4hit ko. It can take on so many threats in the metagame. The key trick here is snarl, which means that setup sweepers can't really do much and it can deal with powerful special threats easier. If they attack glowking, they are at -1 and have to boost up again, which gives it the opportunity to fish for a sludge bomb poison, and then they are totally screwed. It does well against zama, primarina, raging bolt with a bit of support, Heatran somewhat, kyurem, waterpon, special iron valiant, serperior, skarmory, walking wake and volcarona. The team I had beforehand had issues with a few select mons, but this set has instantly plugged up those defensive holes.

 

[weirdo faye]

That's for like every mon. Zama struggles more into stall because dondozo and gliscor (despite it commonly running ice fang) counter it quite hard. Zama is weak to status and has somewhat exploitable special defense, so any fast special attacker can beat it. It also somewhat struggle with ghost types as while it has crunch, ghold can hit it hard in return which is great for offense, while dragapult can t-wave it and cripple it immensely. It also has somewhat of 4mss, as it wants bp, Id, crunch, heavy slam, roar, wild charge, stone edge and ice fang, which all do crucial things.
Zama is immensely powerful against offense, but it isn't unbeatable. Special attackers and status cripple it immensely and it's a good presence that can help with offensive mons.

What's ur point I have won vs fat balances and stall without ever needing zamazenta do anything cept switch in and out zamazenta Iron def set is extremely tanky wdym poor spdef it doesn't even come close to get ohkoed by enamorus or valiant moonblast and it just owns them with heavy slam if u can sweep an entire team just tank that 1 special hit. Weaknesses are mainly glimmora tspikes and dragapult gholdengo depends on set. It's not hard to find strong fast offensive teammates to pair it with to have a good chance vs stall while still being good vs other offense. I think its way too good, some ppl that make their own offenses just pray they don't run into 1 even on the 1800-1900s on the ladder cos "strong fast offensive teammates" that can also break stall are a limited few. If u rly want to say its not broken its cos it usually needs to be paired with those few, poor spdef no its extremely fat, weak to hazard ok just pack a spinner its not hard to fit one on ur ho team...

 

[Heatranator]

What's ur point I have won vs fat balances and stall without ever needing zamazenta do anything cept switch in and out zamazenta Iron def set is extremely tanky wdym poor spdef it doesn't even come close to get ohkoed by enamorus or valiant moonblast and it just owns them with heavy slam if u can sweep an entire team just tank that 1 special hit. Weaknesses are mainly glimmora tspikes and dragapult gholdengo depends on set. It's not hard to find strong fast offensive teammates to pair it with to have a good chance vs stall while still being good vs other offense. I think its way too good, some ppl that make their own offenses just pray they don't run into 1 even on the 1800-1900s on the ladder cos "strong fast offensive teammates" that can also break stall are a limited few. If u rly want to say its not broken its cos it usually needs to be paired with those few, poor spdef no its extremely fat, weak to hazard ok just pack a spinner its not hard to fit one on ur ho team...

Me looking for my spinners that aren't great tusk (treads ain't going on my team even if its the only spinner ever and glimmora ain't living that long):

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 260-308 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 220-260 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 284-336 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 226-266 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sure... But both outspeed (enam is realistically going to be choice scarf) and aren't ohkod by heavy slam. So yeah, I do think they win. And even if they only get one moonblast off, guess what? Zama has no recovery so physical attackers can hit it hard. Scarf meow can now revenge kill it. Speed boosting tusk can beat it. Zama isn't unbeatable if you have one special attacker that is psychic, fairy or flying type, which most teams do have. Even then, any special attacker does decently well against it and once again, it is weak to status.
Zama isn't bad into stall, it's just not really that good into it. Like, wtf is it doing to gliscor and dondozo? Ice fang?
252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 168-200 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Sure, zama can be used alongside other teamates that do well into stall, but again, that is every mon. I could say "Oh serperior is broken because if I can use mons like tusk that do well into steel/fire types, it's unbeatable." See the flaw in my logic? If you pair a mon up with something that beats its checks, of course its going to look broken.
Zama is an amazing mon, we say that in SPL where it was one of the best mons that showed up there. However, it is not broken. Special attackers do quite well against it.

 

[weirdo faye]

Its broken cos its so fat it owns every physical sweeper/breaker with some boosts. Serperior is weak with avg stats and it doesnt do any dmg without leaf storm boosts and its also not anywhere as fast and its also not anywhere as strong to be unkillable even with boost, people love volc right jst send ur volc in if serp has a sub up and +2 and bug buzz it, dead. These calcs are irrelevant they only come into play when sr isnt on the few, if u are 1 of those people to run teams without sr then u do u i am good, and u can be sure at least rocks will go up on offensive teams and i have ways to force people to worry about whats in front of peoples face then thinking of spinning i just ko enamorus after sr always in the times ive faced it i dont need a calc for it, also tera steel exists people have hyped roar sub tera fire bla bla but steel is the generic best 1 on the ladder to account for so many scenarios as possible, i will just use the tera and own valiant if thats the only thing stopping me from sweeping the rest of a team. U type more on these forums than u play the game ngl its fun to reply to you when im in the train back home or bored at work for the lul i cant be bothered to reply to most other ppl even if i think some of them are bad takes Im out tho, see u tmr maybe for more xdd Ill say though,ur english is better than mine i dont speak it as a 1st language but u dont win arguments just cos my english is worse lul

 

[Heatranator]

Its broken cos its so fat it owns every physical sweeper/breaker with some boosts. Serperior is weak with avg stats and it doesnt do any dmg without leaf storm boosts and its also not anywhere as fast and its also not anywhere as strong to be unkillable even with boost, people love volc right jst send ur volc in if serp has a sub up and +2 and bug buzz it, dead. These calcs are irrelevant they only come into play when sr isnt on the few, if u are 1 of those people to run teams without sr then u do u i am good, and u can be sure at least rocks will go up on offensive teams and i have ways to force people to worry about whats in front of peoples face then thinking of spinning i just ko enamorus after sr always in the times ive faced it i dont need a calc for it, also tera steel exists people have hyped roar sub tera fire bla bla but steel is the generic best 1 on the ladder to account for so many scenarios as possible, i will just use the tera and own valiant if thats the only thing stopping me from sweeping the rest of a team. U type more on these forums than u play the game ngl its fun to reply to you when im in the train back home or bored at work for the lul i cant be bothered to reply to most other ppl even if i think some of them are bad takes Im out tho, see u tmr maybe for more xdd Ill say though,ur english is better than mine i dont speak it as a 1st language but u dont win arguments just cos my english is worse lul

Okay, ignoring the rudeness of this post (bad takes, really? Is that what we really are resorting to? Seriously, have you heard the phrase "if you don't anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"), yes zama is amazing against physical sweepers, but my main point is that it is weaker to special hits. When did I say, "physical sweepers are good against it"? If your team doesn't have special threats, guess what? Of course you are going to get owned by zama, that is it's most defining trait. But most teams have special threats, if you don't then that's just bad teambuilding. The serperior example was to show how saying a mon is broken by taking out its checks is unreasonable, this is only ever a good statement if the checks to said mon are extremely easy to beat with other mons and after said checks are defeated, the opposing team is helpless. This is not the case with zama. Let's look at the list of offensive mons in OU that can beat zama, alright?
Dragapult
Gholdengo
Dragonite
Enamorus (why are you switching into heavy slam? Once it revenge kills something, that's when you switch in)
Hatterene (Tera steel heavy slam only has 50% chance to OHKO, so you can get a nuzzle off)
Iron Valiant
Landorus-T
Primarina
Raging bolt
Volcarona (if they don't use stone edge, so that one is a bit iffy)

I would say that is a fair list of offensive mons that can deal with zamazenta. And if it tera's into steel? Well that's a lot worse defensively on the physical side, which is what it should be good on. Tusk? Two hit kos. Weavile? If you have low kick, it has a 2hit ko. Cinderace? Can live a cc and fire back with pyro ball to do big damage.
I win arguements because I don't resort to mocking people as you just did to me, I do play a lot of ladder. Am I the best player? No, I am a perennial 1400s player. Does that make my opinion less relevant? Also no. If I can back it up with facts and logic, people will listen.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Okay, genuine question, but do you find anything enjoyable about the tier? Like, you complain more than verlisfy does about Wolfey, which is impressive. I'm just wondering if you hate the tier as much as you seem to do, why are you playing the tier? Not even as a diss, just a genuine question.

I don’t see what’s wrong with complaining - if anything, it leads to a better metagame if we complain about things that are truly problematic or even things that we may see as problematic.

 

[Conflux123]

I don’t see what’s wrong with complaining - if anything, it leads to a better metagame if we complain about things that are truly problematic or even things that we may see as problematic.

True, but at the same time when you complain about things that don't need to be complained about, it gets annoying and takes away from the complaining about the stuff that should be complained about.

 

[Bunger Royale]

I don’t see what’s wrong with complaining - if anything, it leads to a better metagame if we complain about things that are truly problematic or even things that we may see as problematic.

Not all complaining is actually constructive. Especially when that user tries to derail every conversation to whine about Tera.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

the conversation about the tera bans and how the banners all left does leave a question about the future of the current metagame bans though.

it reminds me of the boomer game "mafia" where the werewolves are the minority and the villagers are in the majority, and each day everyone votes on someone to kill off. importantly, the win condition of the werewolves is when the werewolves equal the villagers because then the werewolves can just always team up and vote for a villager each day, meaning themselves will never get killed while eliminating all other villagers each night

the suspect process currently for this generation does remind me of this. tera barely survived, and now the anti tera crowd (villagers) have largely left the metagame. only the pro tera crowd (the werewolves in this case) remain, and so no matter how centralizing or bad tera becomes, it will be incredibly hard to ban it since the werewolves are the majority left.

with each passing suspect that ends with a non ban, it is similar right? kingambit remaining unbanned knocks off a couple more villagers, ensuring kyurem's ban doesn't pass because the werewolves make up a bigger majority (HO crowd), which knocks off a couple more villagers, ensuring the next HO unit doesn't get banned, causing a cascading effect. anything thats not HO, suddenly then have a very easy route of getting banned (archulodon) and the cycle continues.

is this currently whats happening? is this a problem? how do we ever fix this problem? people who leave the gen doesn't easily come back without a big change, and big changes can't happen because the remaining werewolves want to ensure the status quo.

Yes this describes the scenario somewhat accurately. If we get to the point where we have to ban 10 pokemon broken by tera with no sign of stopping then I think the council would remove tera forcibly, but as it stands right now we are nowhere near that point, as only eleki is banned for that reason. So honestly the best thing would be to wait and see what happens as more bans happen. After all, these bans will all have different factors for why these pokemon get suspected/banned in the first place. It is going to be months of bans before we have anything resembling a balanced tier so get ready for that, but it all depends on the factors of which cause pokemon to get banned, as if a large amount later down the line are proven to be broken by tera and if new pokemon are broken by it with no sign of stopping, then removal would be required. Things are nowhere near that dire though so it is best to wait and see how this meta develops, because we have no clue if the meta will get to a dire point like that after enough bans. The uncertainty worries me too, so I understand but it is gets to see how this meta plays out in the end, as then we will find out if tera causes a domino effect of bans later on or not. No one knows what will happen, so let's just enjoy what we have and try to make it better at least, and see how that plays out over the next months.

True, but at the same time when you complain about things that don't need to be complained about, it gets annoying and takes away from the complaining about the stuff that should be complained about.

Also very good point, let's go back to complaining about Roaring Moon and Waterpon again, as well as Kyurem. Those three have proven to be issues time and time again

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Not all complaining is actually constructive. Especially when that user tries to derail every conversation to whine about Tera.

Perhaps your definition of reasonable complaining is different from mine, but complaining about highly divisive things in the community is for me. Not sure what the Tera crusade is for though (although I support a Tera suspect).

 

[RaikouLover]

True, but at the same time when you complain about things that don't need to be complained about, it gets annoying and takes away from the complaining about the stuff that should be complained about.

Excuse me. Who made you arbitrator? Anything included on surveys is more than fair game to complain about. If you actually think the metagame is all good in the hood, good for you. I disagree; there is substantial room for improvement!

Okay, genuine question, but do you find anything enjoyable about the tier?

Big fan of the resurgence of sun this Gen. The homie Torkoal is finally getting love. Protosynthesis may be a bit cracked but the mons are all fun to use and have cool designs. Gouging Fire is aesthetically very impressive. They did a great job on the concept.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Big fan of the resurgence of sun this Gen. The homie Torkoal is finally getting love. Protosynthesis may be a bit cracked but the mons are all fun to use and have cool designs. Gouging Fire is aesthetically very impressive. They did a great job on the concept.

I disagree with you sometimes but sun being good again is really cool to see, that I can agree with

 

[arnimacarni]

Excuse me. Who made you arbitrator?

Nobody, and nobody made you either. You are the one that derails every conversation into a tirade about tera. Dude's got a point, we're going in circles around certain topics that just are a waste of time at this point.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Nobody, and nobody made you either. You are the one that derails every conversation into a tirade about tera. Dude's got a point, we're going in circles around certain topics that just are a waste of time at this point.

And you’re the one who’s derailing the conversation by blaming the guy for having a view that doesn’t align with yours. Dude’s got a point, anything on surveys is a topic that should be discussed and advocating for a Tera test is not useless, contrary to your opinion.

 

[FCKNfuego]

With the state of the tier, I'm almost thinking we just do a Booster Energy suspect and maybe Volc. I don't necesarrily think Booster Energy breaks many if any mons or vice versa. So then you ask, "Why not just ban the few if any mons that Booster Energy contributes to breaking?"

Well first of all, we can't. We can't seem to agree on banning anything. So just take a bit off the top from some of these borderline cases and then ban anything if it is still a problem. And even if we still cannot agree, this would nerf most of the current borderline threats besides Waterpon and Volc.

Agree on test for booster, it contributes heavily to the offensive profile of the meta. It's the next thing in line if we ain't touching tera and there is no consensus on what mons need to be banned.

Standard Bolt, Gouging, Moon and Valiant sets get knocked down a peg as well as the vast plethora of setup sets revolving the other Proto and Quark mons.